New druid spell - please comment

[Dark Dragon]

During the last session, my druid (lvl 14) used one of his researched spells. DM and players were surprised about the damage it dealt, but the spell is known by the group for now half a year and was accepted as being balanced. The spell is good against groups of weak to average opponents, before melee combat has begun.

Claws of the Earth

Drd 5

Conjuration (Creation [Earth])
Components: V, S, M
Range: Medium (100 ft + 10 ft / level)
Casting time: 1 action
Duration: 3 rounds (D)
Affected area: One square of 15 ft by 15 ft per caster level
Saving throw: None
Spell resistance: No
The spell causes an extreme fast growth of long stony thorns on a rocky or sandy surface. Each thorn growths to a length of 10 ft and covers an area of 5 x 5 ft. The minimum distance between the thorns is 5 ft. For each caster level one thorn will grow. A thorn makes a single attack to a creature standing on its place with a BAB as if being a fighter of the druid's level. A hit deals 1d8 points of damage plus 2 points per caster level (critical: 18 - 20, x3, only the dice, not the added damage!). The thorns remain where they attacked for three rounds, but they don't attack again. At the end of the spell, they sink back into the ground. The thorns don't make a difference between friend or foe, they simply attack creatures standing on the ground (inivisibilty or darkness will be ignored). It is not possible to harm walls or towers with this spell. A thorn may be broken off by creatures with at least Str 20. The thorns are non-magical, so DR applies normally. Creatures which cover at least three 5 ft. squares may be hit by two (or more, depends on size) thorns.
Material component: Soil or sand and a small thorn made of granite or basalt

Thanx in advance for comments.

 

[Valmur_Dwur]

During the last session, my druid (lvl 14) used one of his researched spells. DM and players were surprised about the damage it dealt, but the spell is known by the group for now half a year and was accepted as being balanced. The spell is good against groups of weak to average opponents, before melee combat has begun.

Claws of the Earth

Drd 5

Conjuration (Creation [Earth])
Components: V, S, M
Range: Medium (100 ft + 10 ft / level)
Casting time: 1 action
Duration: 3 rounds (D)
Affected area: One square of 15 ft by 15 ft per caster level Is this 5x5?
Saving throw: None I would make this reflex
Spell resistance: No
The spell causes an extreme fast growth of long stony thorns on a rocky or sandy surface. Each thorn growths to a length of 10 ft and covers an area of 5 x 5 ft. The minimum distance between the thorns is 5 ft. For each caster level one thorn will grow. A thorn makes a single attack to a creature standing on its place with a BAB as if being a fighter of the druid's level. A hit deals 1d8 points of damage plus 2 points per caster level (critical: 18 - 20, x3, only the dice, not the added damage!). The thorns remain where they attacked for three rounds, but they don't attack again. At the end of the spell, they sink back into the ground. The thorns don't make a difference between friend or foe, they simply attack creatures standing on the ground (inivisibilty or darkness will be ignored). It is not possible to harm walls or towers with this spell. A thorn may be broken off by creatures with at least Str 20. The thorns are non-magical, so DR applies normally. Creatures which cover at least three 5 ft. squares may be hit by two (or more, depends on size) thorns.
Material component: Soil or sand and a small thorn made of granite or basalt

Thanx in advance for comments.

The spell looks ok except for the things in the spell I mentioned and this. The damage is too high! i'd go 1d10 and that's it. The critcal is way too high. Should be (if you have a critical I wouldn't) crit 18-20 x2 based on the way the players handbook lists weapon damage. If I were a DM I'd be very strict on the area it was cast at and would allow the creatures the use of cover for the other 2 rounds that the thorns stand.

 

[comrade raoul]

Generally, I think this is a really cool spell and quite balanced.

I don't agree with Valmur about the critical -- I think it's quite alright the way it is. Still, I'd change the bonus damage to 1d6 per two caster levels; that way, the extra damage is clearly "extra damage" like a sneak attack or a flaming weapon that's not to be multiplied in the event of a critical.

Also, I think the phrase "a single attack with a BAB as if being a fighter of the druid's level" is a little awkward. Wouldn't it be simpler to say "a single attack with an attack bonus equal to the druid's caster level"? The effect is the same, but the expression is a little simpler.

Also -- it might be useful to have ready answers to various nitpicky questions that might come up. Are thorns like magical plant-creatures? Will spells that affect plants affect the thorns? Can I attempt to destroy a thorn by attacking it? If so, does it have an AC, hit points, or perhaps hardness? Do the thorns have ability scores? Can I cast bull's strength or magic fang on a thorn to make it more effective?

 

[Dark Dragon]

Generally, I think this is a really cool spell and quite balanced.

I don't agree with Valmur about the critical -- I think it's quite alright the way it is. Still, I'd change the bonus damage to 1d6 per two caster levels; that way, the extra damage is clearly "extra damage" like a sneak attack or a flaming weapon that's not to be multiplied in the event of a critical.

Good point, as it wouldn't do a quite "static" damage.
Valmur, I can't agree that the spell should do only 1d10 damage. After all, it's a level 5 spell, Flame Strike or Call Lightning do in an area 14d6 or 10d10 damage, respectively (if cast by a level 14 druid), and are of lower level. The affected area for Claws of the Earth is one square per caster level. Each square has a side length of 15 ft. The thorns can provide cover, of course (and a capable DM will use this for his NPCs ). The spell gives no save because it creates objects which make normal melee attacks on their own (see Summon Monster ...).

Also, I think the phrase "a single attack with a BAB as if being a fighter of the druid's level" is a little awkward. Wouldn't it be simpler to say "a single attack with an attack bonus equal to the druid's caster level"? The effect is the same, but the expression is a little simpler.

Yap (sometimes the simple ways don't get into my mind ).

Also -- it might be useful to have ready answers to various nitpicky questions that might come up. Are thorns like magical plant-creatures? Will spells that affect plants affect the thorns? Can I attempt to destroy a thorn by attacking it? If so, does it have an AC, hit points, or perhaps hardness? Do the thorns have ability scores? Can I cast bull's strength or magic fang on a thorn to make it more effective?

Good to mention that. I'll try to answer your questions one by one.
1st: No, they are made of lifeless stone, and completely nonmagical (as is a summoned normal orc).
2nd: No, see answer 1.
3rd: Obviously, I forgot that option. Of course, the thorns can be destroyed as any normal stone building can be. Plus the option stated in the spell's description.
4th: Yes, but I don't have the books at work, so I don't know the hit points and hardness of a stone "pillar" of that size.
5th: No. They are lifeless objects and so have no ability scores.
6th: No, see answer 5.

Thanx for the comments!

 

[trentonjoe]

This looks quite similar to Evard's Black Tentacles.

Evard’s Black Tentacles

Conjuration (Creation)
Level: Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect: 1d4 tentacles + one tentacle/level, all within 15 ft. of a central point
Duration: 1 hour/level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell conjures many rubbery black tentacles. These waving members seem to spring forth from the earth, floor, or whatever surface is underfoot—including water. There are 1d4 such tentacles, plus one per caster level, appearing randomly scattered about the area. Each tentacle is 10 feet long (Large) and saves as the character does. It has AC 16, 1 hit point/per caster level, an attack bonus of +1/per caster level, and a Strength score of 19 (+4 bonus). It is immune to spells that don’t cause damage (other than disintegrate).

Each round that a tentacle is not already grappling someone or something, starting the round after it appears, it makes a grapple attack at a random creature or object within 10 feet of it. These attacks take place on the character's turn. The tentacles do not attack each other, nor do they attack objects that are smaller than a Medium-size creature. The attacks are like regular grappling attacks, except that they don’t provoke attacks of opportunity from opponents. Also, they cause 1d6 points of normal damage (+4 for Strength), not subdual damage. A tentacle maintains its grapple even after its subject is dying or dead.



It looks like to me you are trading the longer duration for an increase in damage. I don't see a fundamental problem.

I would give the claws similar stats to the tentacles though. Maybe slightly better.

 

[da chicken]

To me, this spell looks like a natural extention to spike growth and spike stones, but you tried to word it like evard's black tentacles.

My suggestion:

Wonky crit system. Make it a flat 20/x3.

Change school from "Conjuration(Creation) [Earth]" to "Transmutation." Because you're only allowing the spell to work on stone or earthen locations, transmutation is much more appropriate, IMO. However, you should probably change Spell Resistance to "Yes" if you do that.

Also, the wording is cumbersome. Try:
"This spell causes a number of large cone-shaped stone spikes to erupt from the ground, walls, ceiling, or other stone or earthen surface. Each conical spike grows to a lenght of 10 feet, and is 5 feet across at the base. The spell creates one spike per caster level. No two spikes may be more than 60 feet apart, and no two spikes may be closer than 5 feet together. The spikes are non-magical in nature. Each has a hardness of 8, 75 hit points [arbitrary], and has a break DC of 25 [also arbitrary].

"On the round the spikes grow, each spike may be directed to strike a creature adjacent to or within the space the spike grows. Each spike attacks with an attack bonus equal to the caster's level, and each spike deals 1d8 damage plus 2 damage per caster level. On a successful critical hit, this damage is tripled. In any case, a small creature can be attacked only by one spike, a medium by two, and a large creature by three. Huge and larger creatures can be attacked by any spike which could reach them, and creatures smaller than small cannot be attacked at all."

 

[Dark Dragon]

To me, this spell looks like a natural extention to spike growth and spike stones, but you tried to word it like evard's black tentacles.

Although the similarities to Evard's Black Tentacles are striking, I didn't had the spell in mind when I created the Claws-spell. Perhaps because the tentacles are not used in our group (don't ask me why, it seems to be a nice spell). Spike Stones was a "base" for the new spell.

My suggestion:

Wonky crit system. Make it a flat 20/x3.

Hmmm, I'd say the thorns are like huge scimitars. So I gave them a crit range of 18-20, x3.

Change school from "Conjuration(Creation) [Earth]" to "Transmutation." Because you're only allowing the spell to work on stone or earthen locations, transmutation is much more appropriate, IMO. However, you should probably change Spell Resistance to "Yes" if you do that.

A school change may be ok (although one could refer to Evard's spell), spell resistance shouldn't apply because the thorns are nonmagical and the spell doesn't affect creatures directly (like a Magic Missile. Again, I'd compare it with Evard's spell.

Also, the wording is cumbersome. Try:
"This spell causes a number of large cone-shaped stone spikes to erupt from the ground, walls, ceiling, or other stone or earthen surface. Each conical spike grows to a lenght of 10 feet, and is 5 feet across at the base. The spell creates one spike per caster level. No two spikes may be more than 60 feet apart, and no two spikes may be closer than 5 feet together. The spikes are non-magical in nature. Each has a hardness of 8, 75 hit points [arbitrary], and has a break DC of 25 [also arbitrary].

"On the round the spikes grow, each spike may be directed to strike a creature adjacent to or within the space the spike grows. Each spike attacks with an attack bonus equal to the caster's level, and each spike deals 1d8 damage plus 2 damage per caster level. On a successful critical hit, this damage is tripled. In any case, a small creature can be attacked only by one spike, a medium by two, and a large creature by three. Huge and larger creatures can be attacked by any spike which could reach them, and creatures smaller than small cannot be attacked at all."

Well, that's a good wording (and shows my lack to translate something from german to english). Now, I've to translate it back into german , which should be easier. Small and medium-sized creatures should be attacked only by one thorn, because they cover only one 5 ft square, and the thorns have at least 5 ft free space between each other. Creatures who cover at least three 5 ft squares could be hit by two thorns.
Thanx for the comment.

 

[Happiest_Sadist]

I'd change the crit to 19-20 x2. On a successful critical hit, the victim is impaled. Any action twists the spike in the flesh and causes an additional 3 points of damage. The victim is unable to move. Spikes have 8 hardness and 15 HP.

 

[da chicken]

Although the similarities to Evard's Black Tentacles are striking, I didn't had the spell in mind when I created the Claws-spell. Perhaps because the tentacles are not used in our group (don't ask me why, it seems to be a nice spell). Spike Stones was a "base" for the new spell.

[...]

Hmmm, I'd say the thorns are like huge scimitars. So I gave them a crit range of 18-20, x3.

Scimitars have 18-20/x2. Spears have 20/x3, which made more sense to me. And I wasn't going to bother with delineating the die from the level-based damage.

You might consider making the damage something like 2d6 + 1/level, max 2d6 +15, crit 20/x3. IIRC, 2d6 is what a huge spear would be....

But that's me. I see this more as a utility spell than as an attack spell, which goes in line with Druids, IMO.

A school change may be ok (although one could refer to Evard's spell), spell resistance shouldn't apply because the thorns are nonmagical and the spell doesn't affect creatures directly (like a Magic Missile. Again, I'd compare it with Evard's spell.

Maybe. I was looking at spike stones and that has "Spell Resistance: Yes." Still, it isn't that much of a change, especially for a 5th level spell, and it still makes sense. Spike stones has an lasting (non instantaneous) effect.

Well, that's a good wording (and shows my lack to translate something from german to english). Now, I've to translate it back into german , which should be easier.

Well, your English is much better than my German. That's what happens when everybody with 3,000 miles speaks your langauge.

Small and medium-sized creatures should be attacked only by one thorn, because they cover only one 5 ft square, and the thorns have at least 5 ft free space between each other. Creatures who cover at least three 5 ft squares could be hit by two thorns.
Thanx for the comment.

Ah. Right. Personally, I don't see any reason to have that restriction at all if you limit the number of attacks by creature size. As long as you make each spike not extremely tough there should be no problem. The spell is arealdy more limited than wall of stone. I rather like the image of "teeth" springing up from the floor and roof of a cave to seal it like a mouth closing.

I'd even argue you should make the spell Instantaneous duration.

Thinking about it more, I'd give the spikes 8 hardness, break DC 25, and 20 to 30 hp. Maybe make Break DC and Hp be 15 + caster level.