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5E New(?) Fighting Style: Tactical

dnd4vr

Explorer
Inspired by some of the comments on other threads, I've devised a new fighting style for the Intelligent fighter:

Tactical
You can choose to add your Intelligence modifier to your attack roll with weapons and unarmed strikes instead of your Strength or Dexterity modifier.

(and for our house-ruling boost: You can use your bonus action to add your Intelligence modifier to damage on your attacks instead of your Strength modifier.)

I'm sure this is "late-to-the-game", but it will allow someone to play a Fighter who can focus on using their wits in combat more than anything else.

Thoughts?

EDIT: updated to reflect that on further thought, a feat might be better than a Fighting Style.

Tactician (feat)
Once during your turn, when you take the Attack action, you can add your Intelligence modifier to your attack roll and damage when you attack with a weapon or make an unarmed strike.

Better as a feat? Further thoughts?
 
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Xeviat

Explorer
Hmmmm ... I'm inclined to say no? But that might just be a guy reaction. It really probably won't affect much other than allowing more character types. The game is already mostly balanced around characters having their highest stat be their attack stat. Only gishes and multiclass spellcasters have to deal with multiple primary stats (and most gishes don't use attack spells, except for some ranger and paladin attacks). Because of that, I feel like no is the right answer ... But you also aren't adding another boost so high int with this is weaker in combat than high Str/Dex with another style, so it is probably "balanced".

You're just going to get a lot of bladesingers wanting to multiclass for 1-3 levels of fighter for this.
 

dnd4vr

Explorer
Hmmmm ... I'm inclined to say no? But that might just be a guy reaction. It really probably won't affect much other than allowing more character types. The game is already mostly balanced around characters having their highest stat be their attack stat. Only gishes and multiclass spellcasters have to deal with multiple primary stats (and most gishes don't use attack spells, except for some ranger and paladin attacks). Because of that, I feel like no is the right answer ... But you also aren't adding another boost so high int with this is weaker in combat than high Str/Dex with another style, so it is probably "balanced".

You're just going to get a lot of bladesingers wanting to multiclass for 1-3 levels of fighter for this.
Thanks for the feedback. And yeah, probably... :)

It does step on the toes of their 14th-level Song of Victory ability with the bonus action boost option.
 

Blue

Orcus on a bad day
Inspired by some of the comments on other threads, I've devised a new fighting style for the Intelligent fighter:


Tactical
You can choose to add your Intelligence modifier to your attack roll with weapons and unarmed strikes instead of your Strength or Dexterity modifier.


(and for our house-ruling boost: You can use your bonus action to add your Intelligence modifier to damage on your attacks instead of your Strength modifier.)

I'm sure this is "late-to-the-game", but it will allow someone to play a Fighter who can focus on using their wits in combat more than anything else.

Thoughts?
Every "replace attack stat" has limitations. Finesse is only on a subset of weapons, none heavy/two-handed. Shillelagh only works on clubs and quarterstaves. Warlock Hexblade only works on non-two handed weapons that you can touch at the end of a long rest which excludes all spell-created blades like Shadow Blade.

This applies to all weapons, melee and ranged. It works with all spell based blades like Shadow Blade as well as with melee attack cantrips.

You can apply Elven Accuracy to anything.

With the exception for warlock hexblade + pact of the blade, it's the only way to get a non-STR attack stat for heavy weapons - things you can take GWM with. Which works great with aforementioned Elven Accuracy.

Fighter is already considered one of the best multiclass dips for cherry picking, and Action Surge is worth the two level dip a not uncommon dip for wizards (even listed in the CharOp guides).

I think that in general this has interesting flavor and the occasional martial class could take it for a flavor but not many because INT doesn't have a lot of synergies elsewhere for them. But I think it's easy to min/max and abuse. Got a specific table that's not going to abuse it and it would be flavorful, but I wouldn't recommend as-is for general usage.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
I added something to the fighter in both 4e and 5e that allows any mental attribute to be used as your initiative stat (call it battle ready).

I would like tactical maneuvers for the Battlemaster as the next step similar to how the Battlemaster has Charisma mods
 
I think I would rather do something like:

If you spend a round studying an opponent, you can add your int modifier (in addition to your str/dex modifier) to your damage rolls for your next 2 attacks against that target.
 

Tony Vargas

Adventurer
Tactical
You can choose to add your Intelligence modifier to your attack roll with weapons and unarmed strikes instead of your Strength or Dexterity modifier.
On the one hand, that's not really much of a perk. Most Combat Styles actually make you better at something than the next guy. If your INT is 16, this makes as good with a Rapier as the guy with DEX 16. ::shrug::

Maybe have the INT bonus add in some other way.

(and for our house-ruling boost: You can use your bonus action to add your Intelligence modifier to damage on your attacks instead of your Strength modifier.)
Maybe just add it, rather than replace it? With some proviso about the type of weapon & enemy or something?

IDK.

OTOH...

You're just going to get a lot of bladesingers wanting to multiclass for 1-3 levels of fighter for this.
A lot of the time, when you try to help out or add interest to the fighter, all you do is create a 'dip' effect that benefits (no surprise) some caster class.

Seems like it'd be of obvious utility to EKs, too.

And, it'd let 8/8 STR/DEX characters wield weapons - no particular restriction, so rapiers (which maybe isn't too crazy) to greataxes…?
 

Quartz

Explorer
Tactical
You can choose to add your Intelligence modifier to your attack roll with weapons and unarmed strikes instead of your Strength or Dexterity modifier.

...

Thoughts?
I think that's way beyond what a Fighting Style ordinarily does. I think this would be more appropriate as a subclass of Barbarian - the rage ability being reskinned as focus. Or maybe some Int-based manoeuvres for the Battlemaster.

You might even reskin the Valour Bard.
 

Saelorn

Explorer
I don't like it, for a number of reasons. I mean, I'm never going to be on board with letting one stat substitute for another, but if that's what you're going to do, then you should commit.

I think this fighting style would be far more interesting and balanced if it let you use (Intelligence modifier plus one) in place of your Dexterity modifier for the purposes of attack and damage with finesse weapons, and for AC and Initiative calculations while wearing light armor.

Simply letting you use Intelligence in place of Dexterity is not a real benefit, since Dexterity is still a better stat; letting someone take that style, if that was all it did, would be like giving someone permission to shoot themself in the foot. The +1 bonus is the actual benefit of the fighting style, which brings it up to the level of the other fighting styles.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
I think I would rather do something like:

If you spend a round studying an opponent, you can add your int modifier (in addition to your str/dex modifier) to your damage rolls for your next 2 attacks against that target.
Too expensive IMHO actually and Fighters have another resource their attacks... spend one of your attacks scanning your enemies for an opening you may use Int/Cha or Wisdom (or appropriate skill such as investigation, insight, deception) and your next attack vs that enemy can be as though you had a superiority die additionally add int/wiz/charisma.
 
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ParanoydStyle

Villager
I don't want to use the word "realism" because I don't actually care about "realism" in RPGs, especially Dungeons and Dragons, but the idea of applying your Int bonus to every damage roll is lacking in let's call it credibility. You make so many damage rolls it is absurd to rationalize a meaningful tactical decision (such as targeting a weak spot, etc) behind every one of them, and therefore it's very hard to buy that being smart will add to your damage rolls on EVERYTHING just like Dexterity does to your damage rolls with a rapier and Strength does with a mace. One of the things keeping the swords in the sword & sorcery genre for D&D is that physical stats still matter; magic is better/magic always wins is definitely a thing.

Also it's probably broken a bunch of ways /breaks a bunch of things balance-wise but I bet other people have already pointed that out.

If I were to homebrew a fighting style called Tactical, its benefits would probably be more similar (and modeled after) those of the Rogue's Cunning Action class feature.
 

Blue

Orcus on a bad day
I think I would rather do something like:

If you spend a round studying an opponent, you can add your int modifier (in addition to your str/dex modifier) to your damage rolls for your next 2 attacks against that target.
I think that would need to be a lot stronger, right now it's a bit of a trap option.

First, who knows if it will still be alive to take advantage of it - your PC isn't the only one dishing out damage.

Second, denying it actions by killing it sooner is stronger then killing it later.

Third, +INT extra damage, if you hit, on two attacks, is about + 1.3 * INT expected damage with the standard 65% chance to hit. That will be much less than expected damage from a single attack for most martial characters.

Fourth, you may not only be giving up a single attack in a round, you are likely giving up multiple, so it's many times worse.

Fifth, by having that round where you aren't taking the Attack action, it also means there are a number of bonus actions you might have that can't be taken.
 

Blue

Orcus on a bad day
I don't want to use the word "realism" because I don't actually care about "realism" in RPGs, especially Dungeons and Dragons, but the idea of applying your Int bonus to every damage roll is lacking in let's call it credibility. You make so many damage rolls it is absurd to rationalize a meaningful tactical decision (such as targeting a weak spot, etc) behind every one of them, and therefore it's very hard to buy that being smart will add to your damage rolls on EVERYTHING just like Dexterity does to your damage rolls with a rapier and Strength does with a mace. One of the things keeping the swords in the sword & sorcery genre for D&D is that physical stats still matter; magic is better/magic always wins is definitely a thing.
But by the same logic, with armor increasing AC and STR adding to bonus to hit, it's "absurd to rationalize powering through full armor on every one of them without any accuracy, and therefore it's very hard to buy that being strong will add to your attack rolls on EVERYTHING". No matter how accurate I am with a rapier that has no affect at all on my chance to attack with a longsword, and no matter how bad my aim and reflexes, as long as I throw hard enough my thrown javelin will connect.

While I have different reservations about it, STR only to hit is so unbelievable that some other ability that can credibly affect damage at least some of the time is way ahead of it.
 

dnd4vr

Explorer
First off, thanks to all for the responses! I love getting home from work and finding multiple posts. :)

From some of the posts, I think there is some confusion maybe? The style default is to allow the Fighter to use his Intelligence modifier for attack rolls, not damage.

Now, maybe those posts were addressing the optional house-ruled bonus action? We added bonus action or reaction abilities to all the fighting styles, so I included it for that reason. But my focus is on the main description of the Fighting Style.

I added something to the fighter in both 4e and 5e that allows any mental attribute to be used as your initiative stat (call it battle ready).

I would like tactical maneuvers for the Battlemaster as the next step similar to how the Battlemaster has Charisma mods
We already house-rule Initiative can be a Dex, Int, or Wis check (player's choice).

I think I would rather do something like:

If you spend a round studying an opponent, you can add your int modifier (in addition to your str/dex modifier) to your damage rolls for your next 2 attacks against that target.
That sounds more like a feat than a Fighting Style, but the idea has merit as feat maybe.

My goal, obviously, is to increase the potential value of Intelligence to Fighters, Paladins, and Rangers. By extension, other classes might add a bit to favor a dip into those classes for a couple levels, which I am fine with.

Actually, in reviewing the Fighting Styles, maybe a feat would be better.

Tactician
Once during your turn, when you take the Attack action, you can add your Intelligence modifier to your attack roll and damage when you attack with a weapon or make an unarmed strike.

I'll update the OP with this idea. Thoughts on the feat?
 

Esker

Explorer
But by the same logic, with armor increasing AC and STR adding to bonus to hit, it's "absurd to rationalize powering through full armor on every one of them without any accuracy, and therefore it's very hard to buy that being strong will add to your attack rolls on EVERYTHING". No matter how accurate I am with a rapier that has no affect at all on my chance to attack with a longsword, and no matter how bad my aim and reflexes, as long as I throw hard enough my thrown javelin will connect.

While I have different reservations about it, STR only to hit is so unbelievable that some other ability that can credibly affect damage at least some of the time is way ahead of it.
I'm on record here as being decidedly anti-simulationist, but if stepping away entirely from the game balance aspect, this is absolutely true. I wonder what would happen if you just got rid of the finesse property and had DEX governing to-hit for all weapons, and STR affecting damage for all weapons except crossbows (and you got rid of the crossbow expert feat). A lot more rogues would use crossbows, I guess, though they don't care all that much about their static damage bonus after a point. But I kind of like the strategic tradeoffs inherent in having to decide whether your character is going to to hit harder or more often.
 

Esker

Explorer
Tactician
Once during your turn, when you take the Attack action, you can add your Intelligence modifier to your attack roll and damage when you attack with a weapon or make an unarmed strike.

I'll update the OP with this idea. Thoughts on the feat?
It'd be a must have for Arcane Tricksters, that's for sure.
 

bedir than

Registered User
As there isn't a fighting style that boosts Initiative, I would be tempted for the Tactical Style to add INT to Initiative, as well as allow the character to choose to delay their action.
 

dnd4vr

Explorer
As there isn't a fighting style that boosts Initiative, I would be tempted for the Tactical Style to add INT to Initiative, as well as allow the character to choose to delay their action.
There are other features that allow you to add INT to Initiative, but I suppose for Fighters this would be a great boon if you favor frontloading your nova abilities. Otherwise, as a pet peeve of mine, I have never valued Initiative highly since after the initial action, it is just a "I go, you go, I go, you go" thing... so I would rather see something you will benefit from every round, not just the first.
 

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