new gamers from the ranks of WoW types

[Tervin]

Way back in the early 80s here in Sweden my experience is that roleplaying was mainly popular among middle class intellectual guys. Some were considered geeks, but far from all. Hey, half of my first gaming group were really popular jocks that at times had quite popular girls coming to visit during the sessions just to see what we were doing.

Later at university the geek percentage was slightly higher among the gamers, but still not a clear case. And I still had not roleplayed with anybody from a poor background. I got involved in a few gaming clubs, and started to see that there were basically some geeky RP clubs and some non geeky. Myself I enjoyed being able to play in both.

Working as a high school teacher I have run into a lot of teenagers interested in games. My impression is that playing computer games is something almost all of them do, but playing too much can get you considered a geek. Among the more geeky MMORPG-ers you run into some of the PnP-players and among the LARP-fans you find the others. As for social patterns I would say that poorer kids don't even know what PnP-roleplaying is. The typical pattern is that teen roleplayers come from an academic middle class background, much like what it was when I was their age. The difference is basically that there is a higher percentage of girls.

Things are of course different in different countries. Especially what people would consider a "poor" background. I won't go into any thoughts on differences there because it would quickly turn into politics. I will just throw in some doubt on the "poor kids play RPGs" based on that tabletop roleplaying is a pastime that mostly appeals to people who like to read and want to be able to express themselves in a creative way. If you look at studies from just about any country in the world, you will see that this is not a typical description of people from a poor background. That is a typical description of a middle class intellectual.

 

[Farmer42]

Pretty common where I grew up. Only poor folks, tramps, and thugs played D&D.Most of us were so poor, we lived in squats, ate raw ramen noodles and played with used 1st ed. AD&D books that had been passed down through generations of gutter punk gamers. Really, it was pretty hard core. I didn't know a single person who played D&D that could be classified as a "nerd".

Ahh, the joys of being a student. Even the beggars pity you.

 

[el-remmen]

Weird. I've found that investing in large-ish P&P game lines (e.g., D&D 3x, WoD, GURPS 3e, Hero FRED, etc) has always cost me considerably more than building a custom desktop computer.

Except that most people (esp. kids and in the older days) could just get the basic box set and be happy not needing anything else.

I know as a kid D&D was great because only one person needed any books, dice are relatively cheap (or could be recreated with a bag full of numbered chips) and was hours of entertainment.

I played a lot of my early D&D games while living in the projects, but I never thought of it as a poor folks' game.

 

[jdrakeh]

Except that most people (esp. kids and in the older days) could just get the basic box set and be happy not needing anything else.

I appreciate that you think this, but proving it as fact is another thing entirely. Anecdotal evidence versus anecdotal evidence! To the death!

 

[el-remmen]

I appreciate that you think this, but proving it as fact is another thing entirely. Anecdotal evidence versus anecdotal evidence! To the death!

You think most young gamers are obsessive collectors of rulebooks and even think of it as "investing"?

I appreciate that my assertion is anecdotal evidence, but even if what you say is true I would go on to assert that is does not invalidate my view since typically it is one player out of a group (the DM) who does the investing - meaning that the other players need to do little to none of it.

Anyway, I am not interested in "facts" - I am only interested in pointing out that no real monetary investment is needed to play D&D obsessively, thus making it a good game for the poor - though I still think of it as a mostly "middle-class" passtime.

 

[med stud]

My personal, anecdotal experiences with PnP-roleplayers is that there is a large minority of them that are maladjusted. Not in the antisocial way but in the don't-quite-get-social-interaction way. Those are the kind of people that you notice and in school it's the kind of people that often gets ostracized. I think most roleplayers I have met in Sweden are from a middle class background. Many of them are poor as adults due to strange decisions (studying culture for four years and then whining about not getting any jobs for example).

My present group is one of the guys I have played with for 20 years and four MMORPG- kids. The new players like RPGs more than they like computer games due to the freedom to do what they want to do and due to the personal interaction. They don't care much for the rules, I think I could use any game and they would still be up for it. It's the creative freedom they are after mainly.

 

[med stud]

Ok, reading about your friend, and the fact it was 3E he tried and liked for its ultimate "freedom" -- I have to ask. Has this person tried 4E yet? What does he think of the new direction, where while there is still plenty of freedom (especially for roleplaying which would take a concerted effort to limit by rules ina pen and paper game), they've also moved towards cutting away many of the freedoms 3E offered, like multiclassing as much as you want even if it was a REALLY bad idea, or the vast array of special combat maneuvers anyone could try eithout needing a feat or power to do so?

I'm not trying to flame 4E (for once, heh), it's just that I always hear people say that this new addition will help to attract WoW type gamers to the hobby, with no idea why exaqctly, since i don't play these games. So I find my interest piqued here, if there's perhaps an example of a MMO veteran and afficianado, looking upon D&D's transition with a tinge of regret/sadness over how the one thing that made the game stand out for him was being compromised. If he likes it better, I guess I can just move on, but it'd be refreshing to hear some rebukes of the conventional wisdom.

In my experience, new players don't care about the specifics of the rules. If they want fiddling with character creation, WoW provides that in spades. It's the social aspect and the ability to do off the wall- stuff they like. The descriptive parts, essentially, the ones you can do with any RPG really.

4e worked fine for them. It is simple to make a new character, they like the races and the powers are easy to understand and coming up with tactics is intuitive.

About multiclassing and combat maneuvers, the question has never come up and I doubt any of them would bother if I said that it isn't possible.

 

[DeusExMachina]

Given the higher expenses of books here, I don't think it could ever qualify as a poor man's hobby. When you convert it, a friend of mine paid about 150-160 us dollar just for the 4e core books...
Also in all my years of playing, the players I have played with have all pretty much been middle class. Then again, it's all about your environment where you find friends and such, because I must admit I don't know that many really upper or lower class people...

 

[Steely Dan]

Given the higher expenses of books here, I don't think it could ever qualify as a poor man's hobby.

D&D is the poor man's hobby.

Compared to pretty much any other hobby, comic book collecting, cars, art, wine, baseball cards, women, CCG etc, it is dirt cheap.

 

[Ginnel]

depends what you class as middle class really, here in the UK it is well off I reckon with one parent earning to be middle class you want to be earning £30k+ at least, the upper class is an extra special class in england more to do with attitude and history than specifically money, infact most "classes" are to do with background and attitude rather than money earned.

having said that most people I play with have a University Degree of some sort, quite a few have Masters or Doctorates, so I would say its based more on intelligence/imagination than earnings oh and also on Geekery (the majority of people I know who roleplay are Geeks)

I consider myself an inbetweener I hang out and do Geeky things, watch Dr Who and make Monty Python and warhammer 40k references, I also watch the football (soccer) with some mates down the pub and go out clubbing on a Fri/Sat night (mostly to non rock clubs )