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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Gorgoroth" data-source="post: 6080213" data-attributes="member: 6674889">Fair enough, but I wonder if limiting spells/powers to in-combat (which, let's face it, the level 16 4e wizard fly spell pretty much is), and leaving the players to try to find contortions to use them outside of combat, is precisely why I found 4e so stifling. When I play games, I don't mind that my fireball didn't destroy the environment, or that the wall of ice didn't actually melt and ruin the carpet texture, because it's a limitation of the game engine. When I play D&D, our imaginations don't need such structure, and we're perfectly fine calculating weight limitations once in a blue moon to try and share fly spells or figure out how thin / narrow I can make my walls of stone to help us walk across the chasm, or build up defenses.But to each their own! Your play style is valid too, it's not just D&D IMO, it's videogamey. I'll say this as a caveat again. I make games for a living. I don't need to play a paper video game. Our imaginations and intellects are much more fertile ground than a set of rigidly encoded fake physics rails can provide. Waaaay too many finicky rules in 4e, that interacted in wierd ways, ways that were vexing and counter intuitive. In an AD&D game, the DM could say, okay this is what the spell description says, or this is how I rule your non-weapon proficiency boosts your social skill or your dex/wis/int affects how well your trap is made. "I don't want to assume my character is going to die. Not unless I think it's better for the story that he does."Assuming your character will die unless he's very lucky to make it to a ripe old age and retire in his kingdom, while still doing death-defying things, is precisely the soul of D&D to me. There is a huge disconnect here, because I don't find playing immortal characters in a role playing game or in a videogame very challenging or rewarding. There is no death to defy, and thus no glory. You cannot get truly attached to your character IMO if there is no chance the dice will send him to an early grave. And I'm not saying in 4e there is zero chance, it's just the deck is so stacked against it (no system shock rolls, for example, and no con loss), that in 3 years of playing every week I've seen ONE character die, who basically committed suicide since he just didn't care any more. Our warden kept taunting the enemies because he felt invincible. At a certain point, our DM doubled the enemy damage just to challenge us...but it was too late. We could see the code in the matrix. Everything is scaled to your level or around there, there is no expectation that you cannot beat an encounter put in front of you, so you get blaze and complacent. Sure, chalk it up to a difference in play styles, but it's pretty clear that 4e failed and even with the survivability knobs turned all the way up, I doubt DDN will expect players to never die or at least fear PC death, because they feel entitled to plot==death immunity, or the game is hard-coded to "Easy" mode. There is only a paltry gold penalty to death in the last edition of the game, no worry at all really. Just a scratch.Ever play a game where you can save + reload anywhere? kind of sucks the fun out of it, doesn't it. Set save points keep challenge in a game to a good extent, but Save + Reload has no business in a game of D&D. Yes, you should expect to die. If you want the glory of taking on monumental quests that no one else would even dare, you should use your wits and your brawn and take a chance...not assume a few rolls of a skill contest will either get that gate open or leave you only slightly inconvenienced.When you know a medusa can turn you to stone in a single failed save, and you're hunting medusas in earlier games, you just do some research and get your mirrors out and close your eyes. In our 4e game, I turned to stone, but it was but the work of a moment for a couple arcana checks to make me right as rain again. //sad, sad, sad state of affairs. After that I was like....ouf, you really can't die a horrible death in this game, can you. You really are not expected to use your powers in insanely creative ways to try and overcome crazy odds, and be a real hero. No risk of death = no heroism, no fun.</blockquote>

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