As I said in the other thread:
Monte seems to be making the assumption that magic items cannot be an expected part of character advancement and a reward at the same time. On the other hand, he also seems to be advocating a style of play in which rewards are generally commensurate with the challenges overcome by the character: in order to get that 10th-level magic item, you need to defeat a 10th-level monster, for example.
He doesn't seem to realize that matching rewards to challenges implies that the rewards become expected. The specifics may vary, of course, and treasure generation may even be random, but if a 1st-level encounter has a 50% chance of generating a 1st-level magic item as a reward, and a party of 1st-level PCs are expected to overcome 10 1st-level encounters before they earn enough XP to reach 2nd level, they should expect to gain 5 1st-level magic items before they reach level 2.
How's this as a counterexample?
Kobolds have a 10% chance per hundred of having a magic item. Magic items don't have "levels" at all. The dm chooses or rolls a random item; it could be good, it could be crap.
Goblins have a 10% per twenty-five of having a magic item, as above.
Wolves don't have magic items, period.
Skeletons don't either, but might be in place guarding them.
The hobgoblin captain of the bandits is well known for having a flaming sword. Standard bandits have a 5% chance per 20 of having a magic item.
To hit 2nd level, the party must overcome 50 kobolds, 40 goblins or wolves, 30 skeletons or the bandit captain and 35 bandits.
Now- what do you expect to earn over 1st level?
Add to the above options the local brute that everyone knows is a spy for the neighboring kingdom, who is tough as hell but has fancy looking armor made of glowing shells, a spear that makes strange hums and groans and a coil of wire that he leaves outside his house to guard it every night (local kids triggered it once and revealed that it screams when disturbed). He's worth half of your 1st level xp right there and comes with three obvious to the locals magic items. But he's capable of kicking the whole party's ass if not approached in a savvy manner.
I played lots of Basic, AD&D and /2e then was away from D&D until the last days of /3.5 when /4e was brewing.
On my return I had to learn what this TPK thing was. We never had that in the old days. DMs used experience and judgment to guage appropriate challenges.
Was the rise of the idea of the TPK just a recognition that there things happened, a change of play style or was it a result of people believing the CRs too much?
TPKs have existed since the very... first... days of D&D.
I have run far more TPKs in 1e than under any other ruleset for D&D. It has nothing whatsoever to do with "CR", which, while imperfect, is far better than the "no guidance whatsoever" approach of earlier editions. (Okay, so there was minimal guidance on building challenges; really, really, REALLY minimal.)
Any treatment of magic items has to accept some basic, unfortunate, facts....
3) Players can get awfully sarcastic when presented with a world with significant (even if small) numbers of magic items, but no way to trade them or make them. This isn't 1980 anymore.
This is called "player entitlement."
Do you have players complain and get sarcastic when you tell them, sorry, you can't make and trade your own artifacts?
While there is nothing wrong with having a way for pcs to make magic items, there is also nothing wrong with making that way cost a lot of time, money and effort. Perhaps more than it's worth. And there's certainly nothing wrong with telling the pcs, "You want to make a
helm of brilliance? You'll have to figure out how, gather the ingredients, etc."
If the players get all sarcastic because they want it easy, they need to find the right group and system. There is no one true way, which is what you seem to be implying here.
Between (2b) and (3) there are reasons why 3e moved so strongly into the player agency magic item creation/purchasing, even if people who entered the hobby later never encountered them. I understand that people don't like this state of affairs, but 'tis life. You are much better off trying to make lemonade than attempting to design against human nature.
So you're saying, "This is how it is, tough!"?
I would say (in a system without so much player agency regarding magic items), "This is how it is, tough!".
Who's right?
Either both or neither.
There is no one true way, and just because 3e did something for a reason doesn't mean that it came to the right conclusions or solutions.
I have NEVER had a lot of magic item purchasing allowed in my game. Never. Although pcs can make magic items by the RAW in my game, I much prefer a simpler but harder system:
1. Find or research the item's formula.
2. Find or purchase necessary ingredients ("Dust of disappearance? I need ten sets of pixie wings!")
3. Spend time and money. And by 'time' I mean days to months to (for very high powered items) years.
What's that? You don't want to retire your cleric for a year while you make a
+5 holy mace of disruption? Then try to find one or accept that you don't have one.
Some of the coolest adventures ever have been quests for a magic item. One in particular that I ran involved tracking down a holy avenger, journeying far away to the continent it was on, fighting through a bayou of dragon servants and then confronting the dragon himself to win it. This was about ten sessions of play.
