New OGL - what would be acceptable? (+)

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
To be honest? If the only difference between the old OGL and the new was royalties (fair royalties, that is), I would support it.
I know it may sound harsh to some people, but the way Pathfinder exploited third edition D&D to actively compete against 4e while paying no royalties whatsoever to the IP owners always seemed a bit...unfair to me.

The crap they're trying to pull according to the leaks, however, is wholly indefensible.
I know. I always kinda always felt that the old OGL was a bit too permissive by allowing full on spin offs without any financial compensation.

As a Brooklynite I am very suspicious of people offering stuff for free. It usually end up bad.

I'm 100% with WOTC not letting another company make millions creating a full game based on their IP without a cut.
 

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billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
It feels a little pointless to debate this because it's never gonna happen. Kickstarter isn't interested in 5-8% of your "profits," and Wizards won't be either. Some thoughts in no particular order:
  • I'm not sure someone doing $750,000+ on a crowdfunded campaign counts as a "small publisher."
  • Granted that I have no experience in the Kickstarter era, I find the 20% prohibitive. I assume no one will be crowdfunding big 1D&D projects unless they cut a side deal with Wizards. I feel like this is probably the intent of the provision.
  • If you can do a $750,000 Kickstarter campaign, you can create a budget with allowances for the 20% royalty on sales above $750,000. I created budgets for OGL products with allowances for a 60% distributor discount on the first dollar of sales, and I'd make breakeven on preorders. If I couldn't do that, we didn't do the book. (You might have noticed that FFG would drop the axe on a line at a moment's notice.)
  • My concern about small publishers would be more focused on termination/revocation language. The royalty rate for actual small publishers is 0%.
Small by what metric? Would the publisher of The Griffon's Saddlebag be a small publisher by your terms? Griffon Macauley hit a windfall of $1.2 million on his Kickstarter for volume 2. His goal: $15,000.

Now, I don't know what margin he was budgeting per unit he's producing and selling, but clearly that Kickstarter went WELL beyond expectations, none of which included suddenly having to pay 20% of that to WotC if he's forced to shift to OGL 1.1 because WotC pushes that license before his delivery of the product.
 

Now, I don't know what margin he was budgeting per unit he's producing and selling, but clearly that Kickstarter went WELL beyond expectations, none of which included suddenly having to pay 20% of that to WotC if he's forced to shift to OGL 1.1 because WotC pushes that license before his delivery of the product.
Non-revocation is my primary criterion for "acceptable." He should absolutely not be forced to 1.1 to fulfill his KS campaign.
 
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mamba

Legend
I believe that if it comes to that, they'll have a hard fight in court with no guarantee of victory. I also believe if it comes to that, it'll cause catastrophic damage to the tabletop industry. Which is why my terms of "acceptable" have to include publicly reaffirming the evergreen nature of the OGL as conceived when WotC first got the IP.
I am not disagreeing with any of it, I just am not optimistic they will let 1.0 live without a fight
 

Haplo781

Legend
This is a (+) thread. If you aren't interested in talking about what we'd find acceptable in a new license, please find another discussion.

We are talking a lot about what isn't acceptable. But, let us think in terms of a counter-offer.

1) No OGL is revoked. Create the OGL v1.0b - it is the same as v1.0a, but includes the extra words that make it clearly irrevocable. The SRD for 3e, 3.5, and 5e remain under the OGL (and now can be used under the irrevocable license).

2) The new license is the "OneD&D Open License", or somesuch. So, not actually a new version of the OGL. OneD&D may be released under the OD&DOL, so folks who want to work explicitly with OneD&D can do so, and can't revert it to OGL.

3) WotC can reserve rights to commercial videogames, software, movies, TV, novels and such. That's fair.
3a) Non-commercial software and media are allowed. Actual play programs are explicitly differentiated from other reserved media, and explicitly allowed.

4) WotC can have rights to some royalties from big players, but they are a percentage of profits, rather than percentage of revenue. That way, a runaway success product or new publisher can't accidentally find themselves taking a loss due to royalties.

What am I missing? I may take good suggestions from the thread and add them to the list above.
5) White Box, both editions of AD&D, 4e, and all flavors of Basic get their own SRDs.
 

Small by what metric? Would the publisher of The Griffon's Saddlebag be a small publisher by your terms? Griffon Macauley hit a windfall of $1.2 million on his Kickstarter for volume 2. His goal: $15,000.

Now, I don't know what margin he was budgeting per unit he's producing and selling, but clearly that Kickstarter went WELL beyond expectations, none of which included suddenly having to pay 20% of that to WotC if he's forced to shift to OGL 1.1 because WotC pushes that license before his delivery of the product.
Yeah this is part of why I think that realistically there's going to be have to be some degree of climb-down from WotC on revenue %. If we look at DMDave he says they're usually looking 90%+ costs ("easily 90%+ of what comes in goes to contractors, cost of goods sold, taxes, platform fees, legal/accounting, etc.") which doesn't surprise me at all.

The response of course is "Oh well increase prices by 20%!", well for starters that doesn't necessarily add up maths-wise but ignoring that complexity, WotC have actually made this very difficult because the WotC-tax kicks in at a specific value, it's not a constant, which is a great way to trip people up, especially as it's basically impossible to incorporate into the way things like Kickstarter work right now (and strongly discourages anyone but the first $750k worth of custom!). If WotC had asked for 5% revenue at all levels, from everyone publishing commercially, that would be rude, but it'd be fairly easy for 3PPs to incorporate it into their pricing structures and Kickstarters and so on. I think people would have grumbled and got over it, if that was basically all WotC were doing. People might even have said "You know what, fair enough!". Opinion could easily have swung in WotC's direction. And I suspect it would have made them more money too! There would have been criticism for doing it in an economic crisis, but I think WotC could have rolled with that.

What they're doing here may impact far fewer people, economically, but it's much more likely to cause a huge headache for those it does.

Which is I why I tend to see the fees mostly as arm-twisting to get people into individual company-specific licensing agreements and preventing future competition.

WotC are very aware of Kickstarters, I think - it's notable that when the Solasta Kickstarter was clearly going to succeed, WotC suddenly gave the Solasta team a special deal, where they'd been using the OGL previously. And I think if they see a Kickstarter going big with OGL 1.1, they may well actually be in touch with the people before those 30 days are up, in order to negotiate a better rate for them (assuming they've made agreements like that with Paizo etc.).

I still think that they really need to rethink the whole approach to royalties, even without deauthorization, to make this acceptable, but I also think they might. The only thing which makes me think otherwise is how downbeat Jon Ritter seemed about the whole deal (Kickstarter's games guy), so maybe his impression is WotC have really dug their heels in on this.
 

Yaarel

He Mage
The royalties are only legitimate if indies are using Property Identity content.

If the indies are using the OGL 1.0a in good faith, then they own their own efforts, risks and rewards.

Hasbro-WotC can create new Property Identity and offer new services.

Hasbro-WotC cannot act in bad faith against the OGL 1.0a.
 

Small by what metric? Would the publisher of The Griffon's Saddlebag be a small publisher by your terms? Griffon Macauley hit a windfall of $1.2 million on his Kickstarter for volume 2. His goal: $15,000.

Now, I don't know what margin he was budgeting per unit he's producing and selling, but clearly that Kickstarter went WELL beyond expectations, none of which included suddenly having to pay 20% of that to WotC if he's forced to shift to OGL 1.1 because WotC pushes that license before his delivery of the product.
thank you for providing an example... lets MATH...

$1,237,197
the first 750,000 is free so
$487,197 is going to be the 20%

let me google what kickstarter takes looks like 5%

so already kickstarter take $61,860
bringing this to $1,175,337
then WotC would take 20% or $97,440
bringing us down to $1,077,897

I sure hope that would be calculated into each pledge.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
3) WotC can reserve rights to commercial videogames, software, movies, TV, novels and such. That's fair.
3a) Non-commercial software and media are allowed. Actual play programs are explicitly differentiated from other reserved media, and explicitly allowed.

What am I missing? I may take good suggestions from the thread and add them to the list above.
I'd like to see songs and music be open, such that if (very!) hypothetically I write, record, and release a hit song called "Mind Flayer" I don't have to worry about WotC's legal department coming after me.

More broadly, I wouldn't mind seeing at least a brief reference to legitimate fair use and-or parody being exempt from any of this, as I believe such to be the case in most countries (it certainly is in Canada).
 


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