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netnomad

Explorer
Doug McCrae said:
Surely there must be a sneak/lurker/ambusher role too. Or is that covered by skirmisher?

I do believe they did mention a lurker type. I also remember they talked about a leader that buffed other in the group.

-NetNomad
 

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Rechan

Adventurer
DaveMage said:
I can't wrap my brain around that one.
Imagine the PHB1. It has rules for combat, and skills. But instead of the core classes, it had new classes, and new rules for how their powers worked. That may be the PHB2 - the same combat rule/feat/skill rules (but new feats instead of the old ones), but instead of Wizards/Warlocks and Clerics (and rules for their powers), it might have Druids and Psions, and rules for how their powers work.

The same way that, if I owned the PHB 3.5, DMG 3.5, and the MM4, I could still run a D&D game. Having the MM1 or 5 doesn't impact my D&D game - all I need is monsters, and the MM4 can give them to me.
 

DaveMage

Slumbering in Tsar
Rechan said:
Imagine the PHB1. It has rules for combat, and skills. But instead of the core classes, it had new classes, and new rules for how their powers worked. That may be the PHB2 - the same combat rule/feat/skill rules (but new feats instead of the old ones), but instead of Wizards/Warlocks and Clerics (and rules for their powers), it might have Druids and Psions, and rules for how their powers work.

But are they going to print the combat rules in every book, or are the combat rules part of a class?

I see a lot of book confusion ahead if this plays out....
 

Vigilance

Explorer
DaveMage said:
I can't wrap my brain around that one.


I'm probably too dense to play 4e. :D

This might not be the place to ask this question, and it will probably come across as rude, but I really am curious.

I have seen you say, several times, that you have no plans to play 4e, yet you're always here, pointing out how many bad calls they're making.

It just seems like a weird phenomenon to me, and you're far from the only one: folks who have decided, for whatever reason, that 4e isn't their cup of tea, but who seem to be in every major 4e thread continuing to let us know that yep, still not interested.

What's the fascination?
 

Rechan

Adventurer
Greenfaun said:
Yeah, that's not super-clear, but I would interpret what they said thusly:

Brutes are big, strong, and dangerous by themselves, because they're hard to kill and hit hard too, whereas soldiers are defensive, strategic fighters, that work well with others and use intelligent tactics. Basically, I think one strong brute might be a de facto meatshield, but mostly an offensive threat, whereas a couple of soldiers might be there specifically to protect the artillery/controller types. But yeah, I'd like more information too, it's not totally clear.
Ahh. So from what I understand you're saying:

Soldier = Defender.
Brute = big ugly monster like a remorhaz or a bulette. You don't need it to have friends for it to be a dangerous encounter, all by itself.
 

Rechan

Adventurer
DaveMage said:
But are they going to print the combat rules in every book, or are the combat rules part of a class?

I see a lot of book confusion ahead if this plays out....
If I were doing it the way I am explaining, I would cut and paste the Combat/Skills chapter from the PHB1 into the PHB2. Probably with some refining or errata built into the system.

I would have a Classes chapter, then a chapter that explained those classes abilities.

Then I would have a Feats chapter (with new feats tied into the various classes).

For example, the PHB has some general feats, but many of the feats are also specific to the classes. Weapon Specialization/Combat Casting/Spell Focus, however, are class-specific feats.

If the PHB had psionics, and it had Psionic feats, those psionic feats would be keyed to the psionic classes. The same way you'd have the Powers chapter that's keyed to the abilities of the classes.
 
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DaveMage

Slumbering in Tsar
Vigilance said:
This might not be the place to ask this question, and it will probably come across as rude, but I really am curious.

I have seen you say, several times, that you have no plans to play 4e, yet you're always here, pointing out how many bad calls they're making.

It just seems like a weird phenomenon to me, and you're far from the only one: folks who have decided, for whatever reason, that 4e isn't their cup of tea, but who seem to be in every major 4e thread continuing to let us know that yep, still not interested.

What's the fascination?

Simple. I have 27 years of emotional investment in the "franchise". I care about the game I love.

I have only played D&D. I tried other RPGs - and found them lacking.

When 3E was initially announced, I balked at first. However, as more and more info came out, I was more and more excited and, of course, converted. Part of me undoubtedly hopes that that will happen again with 4E. Only this time, it's not happening. Each new tidbit drives me further and further away. And I'm finding that fact to be surprising, and quite a bit sad.

The whole thing depresses me. I'm no doubt posting about it as an expression of that depression - a way to deal with it.

I'll wager that many who are doing the same are feeling the same way. It's not that we're posting about it to be jerks - even though it may come across that way - we're trying to figure out why the appeal is disappearing. We want real answers, and all we're getting is market-speak. Very frustrating.
 

Rechan

Adventurer
DaveMage said:
Simple. I have 27 years of emotional investment in the "franchise". I care about the game I love.

I'll wager that many who are doing the same are feeling the same way. It's not that we're posting about it to be jerks - even though it may come across that way - we're trying to figure out why the appeal is disappearing. We want real answers, and all we're getting is market-speak. Very frustrating.
I say this with all due respect:

Replace D&D with Star Trek or Star Wars.

Both have been going since the 70s, and I imagine there are people just as emotionally invested, put their entire lives into these movements.

And I may be wrong, but they usually cope when a new Star Trek show comes out, even if it screws up the continuity of the last one. And many Star Wars fans, while offended by Episodes 1-2-3, still have the various video games, and the ginormous amount of Star Wars novels.

There in lies the problem with attaching one's life to something that other people control. Because they will do something that upsets the people who have untold amounts of emotional investments in something.
 

DaveMage

Slumbering in Tsar
Rechan said:
I say this with all due respect:

Replace D&D with Star Trek or Star Wars.

Both have been going since the 70s, and I imagine there are people just as emotionally invested, put their entire lives into these movements.

And I may be wrong, but they usually cope when a new Star Trek show comes out, even if it screws up the continuity of the last one. And many Star Wars fans, while offended by Episodes 1-2-3, still have the various video games, and the ginormous amount of Star Wars novels.

There in lies the problem with attaching one's life to something that other people control. Because they will do something that upsets the people who have untold amounts of emotional investments in something.

Can't argue with what you're saying - I agree.

But...I've hijacked this thread enough - sorry all - back to monsters!
 

Vigilance

Explorer
Rechan said:
There in lies the problem with attaching one's life to something that other people control. Because they will do something that upsets the people who have untold amounts of emotional investments in something.

And they'll do it for a reason that's even more troubling to someone who follows something (D&D, Trek, Forgotten Realms, Marvel Comics) out of love: money.

And really, that's a place they SHOULD be coming from.

In my lifetime both Marvel and TSR have gone through some very hard times financially. There has to be someone with an eye on the bottom line or the magic won't be made anymore.
 

Moon-Lancer

First Post
Rechan said:
Nope. Wyatt explained that what they're doing is that they want to drive home the point that the MM1 isn't "The Core MM"; if the MM1 doesn't have Frost Giants, that doesn't mean "You don't have frost giants in your game". All MMs are Core.

MY COMMENTS:

So I suspect that various critters are going to be spread out., making each book legitimate, rather than MM1 = Core, MM2-5 = not important to your game, but a nice suggestion. Which probably also means "If you want X in your game, you'll have to Wait for it and then buy MM12 so you can have medusa" (I pulled that out of my butt).

Sounds like the same tactic they use for miniatures right now. You cant buy a pack of dragons, you have to buy every pack to get all the dragons. Really really lame. If they spread their classic material throughout all the books, Thats going to really cheese me off. I don't want to feel like every time i'm buying a book, its only for a few things with a ton of extra junk, Like I do when i buy miniatures once an a while.

What does this mean in terms of the srd? does this mean every monster book an ever phb will be in the srd? I doubt it, so i really don't think its honest to say they are core if it turns out only the phb 1 and mm1 are the srd.

I really wanted to love 4e. I was really exited. But if my assumptions hold true, I dont think I am as interested as I once was.

wears the druid? *old lady from Wendy's commercial*
 
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MerricB

Eternal Optimist
Encounters populated with monsters "on the fly" by James Wyatt: (28:13)

12th level encounter for 5 PCs in the underground/underdark: (done in 1 minute)
Ghost (Controller)
Human Fighter Death Knight (Elite Soldier)
Runecarved Eilodon (Lurker/Leader)

(29:20)
8th level PCs walking through the forest: (1 min 50)
Owlbear - Elite Brute
Quickling Runner - Skirmisher
Satyr Piper - Controller
Werewolf

3rd level PCs guarding a caravan moving through the caravan on the road.
(31:15)
Young White Dragon! (heh!) - took James 3 seconds for that one!

OR

2 Hobgoblin Soldiers - Soldier
Hobgoblin Archer - Artillery
Goblin Hexer - Controller (20 seconds)

32:10 - 15th level PCs who accidentally teleport into Dispater's Fortress. What's a patrol look like?
4 Legion Devils (Soldier Minions)
Bone Devil (17th level Controller)
Eye of Flame (Artillery)

Also:
Bar-Lgura Demon (Brute)
Angels of Valour (16th level Minion Soldiers)

Cheers!
 

coyote6

Adventurer
Rechan said:
If I were doing it the way I am explaining, I would cut and paste the Combat/Skills chapter from the PHB1 into the PHB2. Probably with some refining or errata built into the system.

If you were doing that, you would also need to copy & paste the stuff on building a character, the stuff on ability scores, the stuff on adventuring (e.g., encumbrance, light, travel speeds, etc.), the stuff on rolling dice, and everything else. With just the combat & skills chapters, you couldn't actually build a character & play the game with just the PH2+.

And the wholesale copying of the core rules in successive PH would be really annoying. Who wants to spend $30+ multiple times, to keep buying new copies of rules you already own?

Even White Wolf dropped that idea -- they now do one core book (Exalted; World of Darkness), and other books build on it (Lunars, Sidereals; Vampire, Werewolf).
 

Rechan

Adventurer
I am not sure if they really MEANT this, but here's a problem I have:

I want to use Monster X, but I do Not intend to use Monster X's ability 3. But that ability 3 inflates that monster's CR. If I wanted to take ability 3 off the monster, how would that effect its CR?

The most gross example is the 3.0 Succubus. She had a CR 13, and one of her abilities was, once a day, she had the 10% of summoning a Balor. If your 13th level party is fighting a Succubus, it's all well. But then she has a 10% chance to cause Total TPK.

Compare that to the 3.5 Succubus. CR 7, can summon a vrock with 30% chance, for 3 rounds.
 

Rechan

Adventurer
MerricB said:
8th level PCs walking through the forest: (1 min 50)
Owlbear - Elite Brute
Quickling Runner - Skirmisher
Satyr Piper - Controller
Werewolf
Am I the only one who finds that just... silly?

I might be able to see the Quickling and Satyr, as they might be fey. But... The werewolf and owlbear? WHAT IS IT DOING WITH THOSE TWO? Why hasn't it eaten them?
 

MerricB

Eternal Optimist
Rechan said:
Am I the only one who finds that just... silly?

I might be able to see the Quickling and Satyr, as they might be fey. But... The werewolf and owlbear? WHAT IS IT DOING WITH THOSE TWO? Why hasn't it eaten them?

The idea behind the encounter is that the Owlbear is rampaging through the forest, and is being followed by the fey and the werewolf who then attack the things it has first distracted. It makes a little more sense when you listen to the podcast, although I'm really not sure about the werewolf.

I like the fey following the owlbear bit, though.

Cheers!
 

Rechan

Adventurer
MerricB said:
The idea behind the encounter is that the Owlbear is rampaging through the forest, and is being followed by the fey and the werewolf who then attack the things it has first distracted. It makes a little more sense when you listen to the podcast, although I'm really not sure about the werewolf.
That makes a little more sense.

Now that I think about it, the Satyr Piper might have "charmed" the werewolf. At least, appeasing the sucker.
 

MerricB

Eternal Optimist
Rechan said:
That makes a little more sense.

Now that I think about it, the Satyr Piper might have "charmed" the werewolf. At least, appeasing the sucker.

That's the idea. David Noonan was throwing party levels at James Wyatt, and getting him to come up with appropriate encounters on the spur of the moment, with the tables from the Monster Manual in front of him.

It's particularly interesting as (a) they revealed some monsters and (b) also how they fit together in roles. "Elites" counted as 2 creatures; I think you got four minions for the price of 1 creature.

The encounters didn't always make that much sense, but he was looking for roles/level/environment more than anything else.

Cheers!
 

Vigilance

Explorer
Rechan said:
Am I the only one who finds that just... silly?

I might be able to see the Quickling and Satyr, as they might be fey. But... The werewolf and owlbear? WHAT IS IT DOING WITH THOSE TWO? Why hasn't it eaten them?

The way it sounded to me in the podcast was that the werewolf was almost acting as a scavenger, waiting for prey to be killed by the owlbear, or perhaps scared out of hiding.

It was sort of a symbiotic relationship.

Also, James was under the gun, at the end of the interview, they basically started throwing stuff at him, like, in this case, "8th level party wandering through a forest, go!"

And he was coming up with mixed-monster encounters on the fly.

The forest one was probably the weakest of the lot.
 

Rechan

Adventurer
Oh man, if there's a table that has 'common monsters in x environment', I will squee.

Recently I was trying to put together several encounters for an abandoned town in a desert, and started pulling my hair out because I couldn't find environmental tables. The SRD filter had ones for the MM, but not for any books beyond that.
 

Dungeon Delver's Guide

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