New Psion Character Suggestions

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

KarinsDad:

Read the description of the Adamantine Body, etc., feats.

Nowhere does it say that you are wearing heavy armor, nor does it say that you suffer an Armor Check Penalty.

It does, however, state that you suffer a penalty to the following skills: Hide, etc. The list is the same as the ACP list, but the penalty is specifically not an Armor Check Penalty.

It also states that you are treated as if you were wearing heavy armor for any special abilities - Spring Attack, etc. - which are dependent on armor worn.

Hellcow himself has stated that this was deliberate, as it makes no sense at all for someone to be nonproficient with his or her or its own skin.

 

[KarinsDad]

KarinsDad:

Read the description of the Adamantine Body, etc., feats.

Nowhere does it say that you are wearing heavy armor, nor does it say that you suffer an Armor Check Penalty.

I beg to differ.

"you are considered to be wearing heavy armor"

It does not say:

"you are NOT considered to be wearing heavy armor"

This should mean (regardless of designer intent) that this is just like you are in heavy armor with respect to ALL rules. For example, you cannot run at more than a x3 pace.

So with your interpretation of this sentence, can a warforged with an Adamantine Body run at a x4 pace?

If so, why?

If not, why would he automatically get the Heavy Armor Proficiency feat for free?

It does, however, state that you suffer a penalty to the following skills: Hide, etc. The list is the same as the ACP list, but the penalty is specifically not an Armor Check Penalty.

It also states that you are treated as if you were wearing heavy armor for any special abilities - Spring Attack, etc. - which are dependent on armor worn.

Hellcow himself has stated that this was deliberate, as it makes no sense at all for someone to be nonproficient with his or her or its own skin.

It's not a matter of being nonproficient. It's a matter of being constantly bulky. The fact that you get a -5 to certain skills ALREADY means that you are nonproficient with your skin.

However, it does make Adamantine Body more than just a single feat.

It makes it:

Heavy Armor Proficiency Feat
plus all the bonuses (and few penalties) of Adamantine Body

I can understand the designer intent here, but I consider it bogus when one feat is a superset of another feat and the second feat is not a prerequisite of the first feat. It smacks of power gaming.

Also, according to the "designer intent" interpretation (i.e. where this is not an ACP), swimming would be at 2 * ACP penalty for heavy armor, but only 1 * "skill penalty" for Adamantine Body (since it is not an ACP in that interpretation).

This is inconsistent. Inconsistent rules are annoying as well.

It would have been better if they made it an ACP and then added a sentence that the character automatically acquires the Heavy Armor Proficiency feat with this feat if that is what they meant.

It would have made designer intent clearer, the rule would be more consistent with the rest of the armor rules, AND it would have taken fewer sentences.

 

[Spatula]

It's not a matter of being nonproficient. It's a matter of being constantly bulky. The fact that you get a -5 to certain skills ALREADY means that you are nonproficient with your skin.

Err, so if you have the proper armor proficiency, Armor Check Penalties should go away?

However, it does make Adamantine Body more than just a single feat.

It makes it:

Heavy Armor Proficiency Feat
plus all the bonuses (and few penalties) of Adamantine Body

Which is fine, seing as how warforged can't wear armor. All armor proficiencies are completely worthless to warforged, unless you rule that they need Heavy Armor Prof if they have Adamantine Body and don't want a -5 to their attack rolls.

The word from the designers is that warforged are always proficient with their bodies.

 

[KarinsDad]

Err, so if you have the proper armor proficiency, Armor Check Penalties should go away?

Sure. But psions (the original topic of this thread) would not have the proper armor proficiency without multiclassing (or wasting a lot of feats). It would make a difference for them.

Which is fine, seing as how warforged can't wear armor. All armor proficiencies are completely worthless to warforged, unless you rule that they need Heavy Armor Prof if they have Adamantine Body and don't want a -5 to their attack rolls.

Which is what the rule should be for consistency. No free feats.

The word from the designers is that warforged are always proficient with their bodies.

And that is fine.

The point is that they made a bit of a mess of this (non-clarity on the weapon issue and the swimming ACP issue) and did not explain it well in the book.

Not only that, at one point, EVEN the designers called it an ACP.

Mithral Fluidity feat: "In addition, the armor check penalties to ..."

Hmmmm. So, I suspect the proper interpretation of what is written in the book should be ACP and the designers have since changed that. I don't have a real problem with that other than the swimming consistency issue and the fact that giving the free Heavy Armor Proficiency feat is a bit of powergaming.

 

[Urbanmech]

If you have a problem with it, then don't be a warforged. No point getting heated about what you feel is rules abuse if you don't go down that road.

Go with a Kalashtar if you want to be psionic in Eberron, good abilities and interesting backgrounds just waiting to be explored. Actually any race with no Int penalty (shifter, half-orc) will make a good psion. Lets bring the thread back on subject rather than arguing about the validity of the warforged Body feats.

 

[Spatula]

Err, so if you have the proper armor proficiency, Armor Check Penalties should go away?

Sure.

You realize this is a house rule, right?

I don't have a real problem with that other than the swimming consistency issue and the fact that giving the free Heavy Armor Proficiency feat is a bit of powergaming.

How is it powergaming when the free feat is a useless one?

Re: swimming, the books don't say anything on the subject as I recall, but I wouldn't think warforged are buoyant in water, making the issue of how well they can swim a moot one.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Add in the fact that they don't breathe ...

 

[Plane Sailing]

I'd love to play a kalashtar psion. The backstory associated with them is fantastic and you have tons of possibilities with which way you go. I think that any of the psion specialties can be interesting, and expanded knowledge feats mean that you can grab one or two really useful things from other disciplines.

The blasting flexibility of the energy powers mean that you only need to take a few of them, so I'd be tempted to get a nice balance of offence, defence and utility powers, including some long duration ones and some that work well even if not augmented.

Cheers

 

[Patlin]

I reread the adamantine body feat in response to this thread. It doesn't impose an armor check penalty, it imposes a -5 penalty to skills for which an armor check penalty applies, specifically including swim. It would therefore seem that the penalty isn't doubled for swim and the penalty for having no proficiency in the armor (which would be applying the ACP to other activities) would be irrelevant.

Odd, but apparently thats the RAW.

 

[KarinsDad]

I'd love to play a kalashtar psion. The backstory associated with them is fantastic and you have tons of possibilities with which way you go. I think that any of the psion specialties can be interesting, and expanded knowledge feats mean that you can grab one or two really useful things from other disciplines.

Actually, my friend and I both are playing psions and he is playing a kalashtar psion.

So, I didn't want to rain on his parade by picking the same "psion leaning" race.

I suspect that the GM is going to have his hands full though at higher levels. There is just something inherently *evil* about having two psion PCs in the same party.