New Race: Gutterkin

[Tonguez]

I'm pretty happy with this arrangment. I got rid of search not only for mechanical reasons, but because they really shouldn't be getting bonuses on Int based skills. Anyway, what do ya'll think of them now? If they still seem a little out of balance, what I'll do is give them Move Silent back, but change their +1 to all saves into a +1 just on poisons and diseases.

Its just another halfling now

personally I think you should add the move silently and search back in and give it +1 vs poision and disease. That way the fill a niche as the 'scavenger'. Llike a fox at a lions kill -quick and alert, sneaking in behind the big guys and dodging away before they get beaten (hey give them a dodge bonus too!)

 

[Shane_Leahy]

Wirey Build:

A Gutterkin is considered to be medium sized when opposing any roll that gives a penality to a small creature. The opposing roll must be in response to the action of another creature. For example, when making an opposed roll to resist a grapple the Gutterkin is considered to be medium sized. When attempting to grapple a foe, the gutterkin is considered to be small size.


How about that? Should apply to just about everything, only problem is the "response to an opponent". Needs better wording, helps with tripping, bull rushing and grapple but not to escape a grapple. Any ideas?

Also since it states "medium sized" removes any problems that may occur if they are enlarged.

 

[ARandomGod]

Wirey Build:
A Gutterkin is considered to be medium sized when opposing any roll that gives a penality to a small creature. The opposing roll must be in response to the action of another creature. For example, when making an opposed roll to resist a grapple the Gutterkin is considered to be medium sized. When attempting to grapple a foe, the gutterkin is considered to be small size.

I like it. It does just about what I was wanting too... Although I'd want to add attempting to escape a grapple also (easily added in). Escaping a grapple is technically a self-initiated action, as you said, and so it wouldn't apply there normally. But I see escaping a grapple as a response (response to being grappled), so I'd want it in there.

Of course, I said "what I wanted", I'm not the one who built this race! However I've semi-adopted it. I may even try to introduce it in my gameworld a bit, see how it works out. So thanks Thraka!

However after a lot of thought I've decided on a slightly different flavor.
+4 on grapple checks (all)
Kip Up: As a free action that does not provoke a gutterkin can stand up from prone. Gutterkin have learned to be fast on their feet and to get on their feet fast!


They'll still get bull-rushed and over-run. They'll still GET tripped, and stay down until their turn. They'll just be faster to get up. They'll be all round as good in a grapple as if they were medium sized. They'll have a lot better response to something that knocks them off their feat, but get knocked down more often, and not be good at tripping.

A great implacable foe, and DEFINITELY not another halfling! (However, since it's meant to replace things like halflings, having it very halfling like is desireable)

So, what are your thoughts Thraka?
(And everyone else, of course!)

 

[Thraka]

Wirey Build:

A Gutterkin is considered to be medium sized when opposing any roll that gives a penality to a small creature. The opposing roll must be in response to the action of another creature. For example, when making an opposed roll to resist a grapple the Gutterkin is considered to be medium sized. When attempting to grapple a foe, the gutterkin is considered to be small size.

I like this ability... I just think it gives them too much of a good thing. It eliminates yet another penalty due to their small size (leaving reduced weapon damage really their only Small drawback). That seems a bit much to me, though only because the gutterkin have so many other racial traits. It's a good ability, Shane_Leahy, and I might have to find a use for it in another homebrewed race... but that's for another brainstorming session.

However after a lot of thought I've decided on a slightly different flavor.
+4 on grapple checks (all)
Kip Up: As a free action that does not provoke a gutterkin can stand up from prone. Gutterkin have learned to be fast on their feet and to get on their feet fast!

Kip Up seems too powerful as a racial trait, especially considering that it's an ability that only some prestige classes get. Perhaps a weaker version, where the standing up is a free action, but it still provokes? The bonus to grapple I'm fine with; but like you, I can't quite figure out if it should be a +2 (meaning they're better at grapples than other Small creatures), or +4 (meaning they're as good at grapples as a Medium creature). I'd probably settle for a +2 to grapple checks (and maybe bump that up to a +4 to escape a grapple?) and giving them the ability to stand up from prone as a free action.

I may even try to introduce it in my gameworld a bit, see how it works out.

By all means, please do, please do! I'd love to hear how they work out for you. Heh, and it looks like we're already starting to come up with ideas (such as Wirey Build) for gutterkin subraces.

 

[Thraka]

All right, I've briefly run the gutterkin through a small adventure and a number of low-level combats to play-test them. They certainly weren't over-powered, and my play-testers said that they didn't seem weaker than the other characters, either (or perhaps my play-testers were just being nice...).

Anyway, these are the racial traits we went with:

Gutterkin Racial Traits (Version 1.3)
• +2 Dexterity, -2 Intelligence. Gutterkin are quick and strong for their size, but don't do well when in comes to thinking ahead, or thinking in abstracts, or thinking at all.
• Small: As a Small creature, a gutterkin gains a +1 size bonus to Armor Class, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus on Hide checks, but he uses smaller weapons than humans use, and his lifting and carrying limits are three-quarters of those of a Medium character.
• A gutterkin's base speed is 30 feet. Gutterkins' speed has helped them get out of danger on more than one occasion.
• They Bounce!: Gutterkin may stand up from prone as a free action.
• +2 racial bonus on Spot and Listen checks. Having been forced to live in particularly hazardous areas, gutterkin have learned to always be wary of potential hazards.
• +2 racial bonus on grapple checks, which increases to a +4 racial bonus when a gutterkin tries to escape a grapple. Gutterkin are scrappy, pugnacious, and hard to hold on to if they don't want to be held.
• +1 racial bonus on all saving throws. Survival of the fittest is the name of the game for gutterkin, and those that are fittest are the ones best able to shrug off the poisons, diseases, falling rubble, collapsing shanties, and other accidents that plague gutterkin communities.
• Automatic Languages: Common, Gutterkin.
• Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Elven, Orc.
• Favored Class: Ranger. A multiclass gutterkin’s ranger class does not count when determining whether he or she takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing.

Wait, there's more! We've had a lot of good ideas for racial trait variants, so I went ahead and wrote up tuffkin, the first gutterkin subrace!

Tuffkin Racial Traits
• +2 Dexterity, -2 Intelligence. Tuffkin are quick and strong for their size, but don't do well when in comes to thinking ahead, or thinking in abstracts, or thinking at all.
• Small: As a Small creature, a tutterkin gains a +1 size bonus to Armor Class, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus on Hide checks, but he uses smaller weapons than humans use, and his lifting and carrying limits are three-quarters of those of a Medium character.
• A tuffkin's base speed is 30 feet. Tuffkins' speed has helped them get out of danger on more than one occasion.
• Wiry Build: A tuffkin is considered to be medium sized when opposing any roll that gives a penalty to a small creature. The opposing roll must be in response to the action of another creature. For example, when making an opposed roll to resist a grapple, the tuffkin is considered to be medium sized. When attempting to grapple a foe, the tuffkin is considered to be small size.
• +2 racial bonus on Spot and Listen checks. Having been forced to live in particularly hazardous areas, tuffkin have learned to always be wary of potential hazards.
• +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison and disease. Though not quite as lucky as gutterkin, tuffkin are noted for being much resistant to toxins and illness.
• Automatic Languages: Common, Gutterkin.
• Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Elven, Orc.
• Favored Class: Ranger. A multiclass tuffkin’s ranger class does not count when determining whether he or she takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing.

There it is. Thanks to everyone who has chimed in with comments and ideas!

 

[ARandomGod]

Kip Up seems too powerful as a racial trait, especially considering that it's an ability that only some prestige classes get. Perhaps a weaker version, where the standing up is a free action, but it still provokes? The bonus to grapple I'm fine with; but like you, I can't quite figure out if it should be a +2 (meaning they're better at grapples than other Small creatures), or +4 (meaning they're as good at grapples as a Medium creature). I'd probably settle for a +2 to grapple checks (and maybe bump that up to a +4 to escape a grapple?) and giving them the ability to stand up from prone as a free action.

I went with a plain +4 to grapple. Easier to adjudicate. Plus, as I said before, you really can't "escape" from a grapple unless you manage to resist the grapple in the first place. So it would have to be +4 to resist and escape a grapple. (Otherwise if/when you escape, they simply regrapple you. Having been grappled playing characters with very high escape artist but low grapple checks, I can tell you that there is no actuall escape involved, simply delaying the inevitable).

There's a PrC that gives an unprovokable stand up as a free action? I didn't know. In fact, I didn't know that by RAW there was any stand-up that didn't provoke. (Free actions do still provoke, unless otherwise stated). Anyhow, I've played with tripping a lot, so I know exactly where this ability would stand power-wise. And it is pretty good.

I like this ability... I just think it gives them too much of a good thing. It eliminates yet another penalty due to their small size (leaving reduced weapon damage really their only Small drawback). That seems a bit much to me, though only because the gutterkin have so many other racial traits.

I also like wirey build, but think that it's too much in general... it basically makes them a medium creature with the penalty "Weak grip: must use weapons one size catagory smaller" and "can only carry 3/4 'normal' weight'... along with bonuses "+4 to hide" "+1 to AC and to hit".

 

[ARandomGod]

All right, I've briefly run the gutterkin through a small adventure and a number of low-level combats to play-test them. They certainly weren't over-powered, and my play-testers said that they didn't seem weaker than the other characters, either (or perhaps my play-testers were just being nice...).

Cool!

The one I had in my campaign (lightly modified the way I put it) seemed OK too. But it's too early to really tell, as there hasn't been any grappling or tripping.

Of course, it's easy to see where he'll rank in a grapple, I don't even have to test that. But as for tripping... the unprovokable free stand (that I suggested/mine has) will definitely be very good. Too good? Maybe. I might have to alter it to just unprovokable or just free action...

I suppose of the two just free action is best, as it will let them run better. And there's no reason to stand other than to run away. Otherwise they're better off simply taking the penalty to attack from prone against a trip specialist. (As anyone who's been tripped a lot will tell you!)