New (somewhat cinematic) Feat: Knockback

[Forrester]

KNOCKBACK
You have problems with people invading your personal space.
Prerequisites: Power Attack, Str 20+

You may attempt to knock your opponents away from you with a a bludgeoning weapon, slam, or claw attack. On a successful hit, you make a contested Bull Rush against them, at a size category of one less than your actual size (two less for attacks with natural weapons); this attack does not draw attacks of opportunity, but if the defender fails his check, he is knocked back 5' + 1' per point by which you exceed his result, and must make a Reflex save (DC=number by which he failed the check) or fall prone.

You must decide to use this ability at the beginning of a round (i.e, you cannot simply try to make your last attack a Knockback attack; similarly, if you are attacking with multiple weapons, some of which are not bludgeoning weapons or slam attacks, your attempted Knockback attacks resolve first).

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What do you think? It's always bugged me that bcs 3E is so strongly based on miniatures rules, you don't have cool effects in which people get thrown around when they are hit by really, really big things. I think that this feat is probably balanced, even though it takes full-attack-actions away from high-level fighters, bcs if the first attack is successful, it can often take away full-attack actions from the attacker.

 

[the Jester]

Well, I see no need to limit it to blunt or natural weapons; I can quite easily picture an ogre with a longspear or greatsword knocking an enemy back with the force of the blow.

Also, I wouldn't require a Str of 20; maybe like a 17?

Finally, I'd take out the "knocked prone" bit.

Other than that, cool!

 

[trepanier]

There is a knockback feat in sword and fist, if i remember (one of these expensive books)

What is the difference ?

 

[Forrester]

There is a knockback feat in sword and fist, if i remember (one of these expensive books)

What is the difference ?

I don't think it's Knockback, it's Knockdown. Basically if you hit someone hard enough, you get a free Improved Trip attack against them.

So it's a similar effect, except you don't knock them BACK, you just trip them. Very lame.

This feat, on the other hand, allows you (or the PCs) to make their enemies fly through the air with a successful hit.

This feat could get really nasty with Readied Actions, but I don't have a bit problem with that. (The big-ass Ogre readies a knockback attack against the next person Charging them . . . if they connect, *and* they win the check, technically the attacker would never get a melee attack.

Could be a problem, perhaps. But hey, I want it to be a good feat. And nothing forces someone to Charge a large, mean creature who is readying an action, right?

 

[Jeph]

All big brutes are equal

Why makle it a feat? In real life, if you were hit with that much force, you would fly back 10 feet or so weather or not your attacker wanted that to happen or was trained to do so. By the way, ability score prerequisites for feats are always an odd number, I suggest making it 19 if you're goint to keep it a feat.

How about this for a not-a-feat version: Whenever a character is hit by a bludgeoning weapon, the attacker and the defender make opposed strength rolls. If the attacker wins, the defender is knocked back up to 1 foot for every 2 points by which the attacker beat their roll.

This is a bit less dramatic, haveing only 3-4 foot knockbacks on a good roll, but it makes a bit more sense in two ways:
- 1: Anyone can do it, you don't need special training to be a brute
- 2: Although less cinematic and "kewl," the results are a bit more realistic.

Hey, on the subject, how would this work in a zero-grav environment (such as on a spacecraf in Dragonstar or Starwars)? The freefall rules in Dragonstar don't really include what happens when you're hit really, really, REALLY hard. With no friction or gravity, the character would effectively accelerate pretty hard in opposite direction from the blow.

If you chose to use this version of the knockback rules, you still may want to include the original feat as a way of improving a characters whamming power.


- Jeph

 

[reapersaurus]

compare it to a few things:
Improved Shield Bash from DotF
Knockback weapon enchantment from MoF
Battering Ram spell from MoF
Large & in Charge feat from S&F

I like the idea a lot.
I'd have to really think of how it would work.

Would it 'stack' with Improved Shield Bash?

 

[Spindel]

What if you had the rules for knockback available in general (just like trip is) and call the feat "Improved Knockback" and give them bonuses/reduced penalties for using it?

I like any excuse to bring introduce involuntary movement of the minatures, so something like this could be a lot of fun and amusement. Just the though of a party being send flying by a line of action-readied ogres conjures some amusing images.

I like the sound of being able to nomintate at the time of rolling if an attack is a knock back one (don't know how well this would balance in the game) but I like the though of a monk flurrying someone and then their final punch sends the poor sap flying. This would involve making it a non-full round action, which ment it could be used in a readied/ambush situation which, visually, would be fantastic. Just think imagine some theif running from the law around a corner, only to go flying backwards across the street cause your club wielding barbarian was in waiting.

 

[Forrester]

compare it to a few things:
Improved Shield Bash from DotF
Knockback weapon enchantment from MoF
Battering Ram spell from MoF
Large & in Charge feat from S&F

I like the idea a lot.
I'd have to really think of how it would work.

Would it 'stack' with Improved Shield Bash?

I don't have DoTF handy, and I'm not familiar with the Knockback weapon enchantment or the Battering Ram spell. Can you give a quick descript?

I'm aware of Large and In Charge, and it *is* similar to what that feat does, though a little less cinematic.

Spindel -- the problem is that if you allow a full-round attack in which the final attack is a Knockback attack, you generate some real balance problems. You always get a full-round attack, your foe is reduced to just one attack.

That's what I'm trying to balance out. In general, esp. at high levels, I don't like the fact that you can get soooo many attacks with a full action but only one lousy attack with a partial action; at some point the gap between those two things is just too damn huge.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Ability requirements in feats should always be an odd number, to balance out the bonus which you get on each even number. I'd recommend a Str 19+ prereq.

Cheers

 

[reapersaurus]

Knockback enchantment (from memory)
+3 cost, when subject is hit, must succeed at Fort save DC 19 or be knocked back 10'.
Then another save or be knocked prone.

Battering Ram is like a 1st or 2nd level spell that allows for ranged Bull Rushes, DC 15 or 18.

edit: Would this stack with Improved Shield Bash?