D&D (2024) New Survey Results | Druid & Paladin | Unearthed Arcana | D&D

Folks loved the paladin, but wildshape was divisive!

WotC has shared a new video going over the survey results following the drud and paladin playtests for One D&D.



For those who don't have time to watch the video, here are some general notes.

Paladin
  • Did extremely well in terms of satisfaction
  • All class and subclass features scored 70% or higher - lowest was Divine Smite at 72%
  • Got some pushback in written feedback on being able to smite on ranged attacks - class identity concerns, Paladin viewed as melee-centric class, ranged smites might eat into Cleric/Ranger identity too much
  • Positive feedback on redesigned smite spells - may become paladin exclusive spells down the road
Druid
  • Wild Shape feedback seems to be split - slight majority saying "never want this Wild Shape in print", slight minority saying "this is their favorite version of Wild Shape they've ever seen"
  • People love the texture and differences in beast options in '14 Wild Shape, but are open to feature being easier to use (i.e. don't want players to have to weigh the merits of 100+ stat blocks every time they want to use Wild Shape)
  • Will have another take on Wild Shape next time Druid appears in Playtest UA
  • General concept of Channel Nature seems to have gone over well, but want to see more done with it
  • Expected feedback for restoring elemental forms for Moon Druids, but instead found people wanted to lean more into Lunar themes
  • Want Moon Druid forms to be more resilient, but still want to reign in power at high levels (frequent/unlimited uses of Wild Shape constantly refreshing HP total)
 

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Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Rangers don't only have ranged burst damage, their extra damage from Hunter Mark and other spells also works with their melee attacks, as Rangers have traditionally been either Archery or Two Weapon Fighting. Other Ranger builds can use Strength over Dexterity, so heavy weapons could be a thing for Rangers but they just might not be as good as Archery or Two Weapon Fighting.
The core point of my posts were that Ranged burst damage via magic spells is most of what rangers have going for them.

Other classes are better in other forms of combat And ODND seems to be will to hand out Expertise more.

Therefore if you give Paladins ranged Smite, there will be even less reason to choose a ranger. Even this buffed one. You'd have to redesign the Ranger again to give it a combat niche or defined exploration features.

This is why Paladins will not keep the ability to smite at range.Because WOTC wants

  1. Combat simple and quick
  2. Not to force wilderness exploration rules onto group who ignore them or fully roleplay them
If they make the paladin and fighter the best archers, the ranger will have to be tied to exploration and survival for all 20 levels and WOTC doesn't know how to nor want to force that into the base core game.
 

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Chaosmancer

Legend
Because most use it wrong.

In modern low encounter/day 5e, you open a fight with Lightning Arrow or Flame Arrows then cast Hunter's mark turn 2. This gives you a strong burst that last from level 9 to the mid teens.

No.

First of all, you claim people "use it wrong" then just claim they should use it at the beginning of the fight. Which is... just using it. There is nothing special about the first turn of combat that makes Lightning Arrow more effective.

Secondly, the reason it sucks is quite simply the math. This is a 3rd level spell with a limited AOE. Since we are talking rangers, this means we are 9th level minimum. The AOE does 2d8 or an average of 9 damage, save for half and dex saves are fairly common to pass so at least half the targets are likely to take... 4 damage. FOUR damage. From a 3rd level spell. This is WORSE than a 1st level spell like Burning Hands, which will on average with the same considerations deal 5 damage.

Additionally, they only take 4d8 (18) damage on a hit. Which, yes, is more than you would likely do on a normal hit (2d8+mod ~ 3d8) but this is a THIRD LEVEL SPELL. This is your most powerful attack. The average expected damage for an AOE 3rd level spell is 6d6 or 21 damage, 10 on a save. For a single target it shuld be 5d10 or 27.5.

Like, you can claim it exists, but it is so terrible it really shouldn't. It feels bad to use it.

This allows a ranger to convert more of their spell slots to damage.
That's how you ran a ranger mid level 3e and 5e. Some in 2e depending on your magic rules. Buff. Buff. Blend. 4e skipped the Buff.
However 5e forgot most of the ranger melee buff spells. Paladin theirs plus more.

I don't need more ways to convert spell slots to damage. You seem to be arguing an entirely irrelevant point. The existence of Flame Arrows (which sucks as well, since it is concentration and is just... hunter's mark but for a higher level slot), Lightning Arrow, or Conjure Barrage (which is ALSO too weak for its level) does not give the Ranger Ranged smites.

And even if it did, even if Lightning Arrow was an incredibly good ranged smite spell... it still works differently than the Paladin smites, so it would be fine.

So
Fighter: Strong Attack forever
Ranger: Buff Buff Blend
Paladin: SMITE

Ranger and Paladin don't have the slots to cast 2 spells every combat plus a few out of combat casts in a 6-8 encounter day. So they work best at bursting. And WOTC make the Paladin better. The Paladin has a built-in slot-to-damage feature, heavy armor, and a nonspell healing.

Except the ACTUAL design of the 5e Ranger SUCKS at bursting. They have essentially no good damage spells after 1st level, and they seem to be designed to encourage a long-term, ongoing buff to their damage.

You keep making the claim, but it seems entirely unrelated to the reality of the Ranger spell list.

Which is the issue with Ranged Smite.

The only thing a ranger has going is ranged burst. A ranger doesn't get 8 slots until level 9. Meaning that the fighter has a better consistent attack in a long day and paladin burst melee better in long or short days. Rangers just have burst ranged attacks.

No, the ranger actually is terrible at ranged burst damage. It doesn't matter that they don't get 8 spell slots til level 9, because Hunter's Mark lasts for multiple encounters, especially for the ranged ranger who won't often get hit. And even WITHOUT spell slots, the Ranger is likely far out doing the Fighter, unless they have a subclass that gives damage buffs.

And fighter subclass damage buffs.... are a limited resource.

I'm not trying to be rude here, but you seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of the class design of the 5e Ranger, Fighter and Paladin that is causing you to make these statements. The actual best two burst damage characters are the Fighter and the Paladin, while the ranger is actually designed to do consistent damage over time. Your entire paradigm is just wrong.

Again, with the caveat that everything changes at 11th level where the paladin and Fighter get consistent damage upgrades, and the Ranger gets (essentially) nothing.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
No, the ranger actually is terrible at ranged burst damage. It doesn't matter that they don't get 8 spell slots til level 9, because Hunter's Mark lasts for multiple encounters, especially for the ranged ranger who won't often get hit. And even WITHOUT spell slots, the Ranger is likely far out doing the Fighter, unless they have a subclass that gives damage buffs.

And fighter subclass damage buffs.... are a limited resource.

I'm not trying to be rude here, but you seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of the class design of the 5e Ranger, Fighter and Paladin that is causing you to make these statements. The actual best two burst damage characters are the Fighter and the Paladin, while the ranger is actually designed to do consistent damage over time. Your entire paradigm is just wrong.

Again, with the caveat that everything changes at 11th level where the paladin and Fighter get consistent damage upgrades, and the Ranger gets (essentially) nothing.

Exactly.

The Ranger sucks at ranged burst. It however is the only class that can do it though.

So if you let paladin smite at range, it will automatically be better at ranged weapon burst than the ranger.

The 5e ranger design was BAD. If OD&D/5.5e don't not totally redesign the ranger, then no other class should be allowed to step into its exclusive niches.

Unless the ranger is completely redesigned, neither WOTC nor the community will be okay with paladins smiting at range.
That's all I'm saying.
 

Rangers don't only have ranged burst damage, their extra damage from Hunter Mark and other spells also works with their melee attacks, as Rangers have traditionally been either Archery or Two Weapon Fighting. Other Ranger builds can use Strength over Dexterity, so heavy weapons could be a thing for Rangers but they just might not be as good as Archery or Two Weapon Fighting.
Rangers have traditionally been either archery or two weapon fighting - but the only edition where two weapon fighting was actually good was 2e. (4e it wasn't bad). And rangers do strength-based things worse in general than fighters, barbarians, and paladins (both heavy armour and feats are useful).
 


Chaosmancer

Legend
Exactly.

The Ranger sucks at ranged burst. It however is the only class that can do it though.

1) No, they aren't the only class that can do it. Again, Fighter. Now, sure, it is mostly through subclasses, but what else would you call using Action surge and spending multiple superiority dice other than "a burst"? And it is at range too. And you have the arcane archer, who wasn't a great class, but did have bursting arrows.

So if you let paladin smite at range, it will automatically be better at ranged weapon burst than the ranger.

2) If the ranger sucks are ranged burst... then who cares if the Paladin will be better than them at it? (Which also, they won't, as I showed in my math at the beginning). This is like claiming that making class that non-magicallu heals steps on the Rogues toes, because they are the only non-magical healer. Sure, maybe, but they suck at it and it isn't a focus on their class, so it isn't a niche that needs protecting.

The 5e ranger design was BAD. If OD&D/5.5e don't not totally redesign the ranger, then no other class should be allowed to step into its exclusive niches.

But... they DID redesign the ranger. The ranger for OD&D might honestly be one of the most powerful damage dealing classes in the game right now. Especially if they get weapon masteries (which they will). So, it isn't an exclusive niche. It isn't a niche the ranger cares about. And they DID redesign the ranger to be better.

So what's the problem? Do you not feel the redesign went far enough? I'd tell you, it certainly didn't go in the direction of making them ranged burst damage dealers.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
This thread is the only place I’ve ever seen anyone say that buffing any other classes ranged damage capabilities would require rewriting the ranger.

It’s just…wild and unsupported by any actual reasoning or evidence, AFAICT.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
1) No, they aren't the only class that can do it. Again, Fighter. Now, sure, it is mostly through subclasses, but what else would you call using Action surge and spending multiple superiority dice other than "a burst"? And it is at range too. And you have the arcane archer, who wasn't a great class, but did have bursting arrows.
Well that subclasses. Subclasses muddy the waters. Battlemaster and Arcane Archer both let the fighter outburst the Ranger with any other its subclasses.

This is a problem.

2) If the ranger sucks are ranged burst... then who cares if the Paladin will be better than them at it? (Which also, they won't, as I showed in my math at the beginning). This is like claiming that making class that non-magicallu heals steps on the Rogues toes, because they are the only non-magical healer. Sure, maybe, but they suck at it and it isn't a focus on their class, so it isn't a niche that needs protecting.
You did the math on the Fighter not the Paladin.
If you are saying the 5e ranger has no niche, what niche should the Ranger have in your opinion and is it good at it?

But... they DID redesign the ranger. The ranger for OD&D might honestly be one of the most powerful damage dealing classes in the game right now. Especially if they get weapon masteries (which they will). So, it isn't an exclusive niche. It isn't a niche the ranger cares about. And they DID redesign the ranger to be better.

So what's the problem? Do you not feel the redesign went far enough? I'd tell you, it certainly didn't go in the direction of making them ranged burst damage dealers.
The problem is the Fighter, Barbarian, and Paladin all out damage the Ranger AND out Tank it AND matching it in skills is just a feat away.

The OD&D ranger is still Bad. You did the math.

So you can't really buff or expand the Paladin, Barbarian, and Fighter until you determine what the Ranger is good at.
Balance. Some game Balance, please.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
This thread is the only place I’ve ever seen anyone say that buffing any other classes ranged damage capabilities would require rewriting the ranger.

It’s just…wild and unsupported by any actual reasoning or evidence, AFAICT.
I said it back in the Expert thread.

The Playtest Paladin is a monster like the 5e Paladin before it. I would not be surprised if with masteries, it's it best weapon user in the game.
 


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