New to D&D - Level x magic item?

[Castellanox7]

Slightly new DM chiming in...

I ran a couple friends of mine through Red box, and found it fit nicely being an all-in-one deal.

The next one I plan to run through are the Reavers of Harkenworld ([ame=http://www.amazon.com/Dungeon-Masters-Kit-Essential-Dungeons/dp/0786956305/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1327708367&sr=8-2]Amazon.com: Dungeon Master's Kit: An Essential Dungeons & Dragons Kit (4th Edition D&D) (9780786956302): James Wyatt, Jeremy Crawford: Books[/ame]) which comes with 95% of all the stuff you'll need. There are two or three battles that require the use of tiles/posterboard/dry-erase sheets, but everything else is inside.

After that, I'm looking towards Madness at Gardmore Abbey ([ame=http://www.amazon.com/Madness-Gardmore-Abbey-Dungeons-Supplement/dp/0786958723/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1327708513&sr=1-2)to]Amazon.com: Madness at Gardmore Abbey: A Dungeons & Dragons Supplement (4th Edition D&D) (9780786958726): James Wyatt, Creighton Broadhurst, Steve Townshend: Books[/ame] go from there.WITH THAT, this "path" may not work for you, there are a boatload of awesome people here who would have a much better idea what they're talking about than I.

Also remember... "Fun" always trumps "Rules"!

 

[DadToD&DBoys]

Dr_ruminahui - It's clear I'll have to pickup some more books. Several have mentioned the Rules Compendium and the Heroes books. I appreciate your advice.

Castellanox7 - thanks for your input as a slightly new DM. As I've mentioned we've had great fun with the Red Box and so far with the DM Kit. I've found it great that the game is so open that I can just 'go with whatever works' when I don't know the rules. My kids will throw out a few "what if's" and we usually are able to keep things flowing along. It sounds like you and us are on the same playing path.

My problems are coming up where I feel there shouldn't be any problem at all. Let me give you an example...

My kids have spent literally hours flipping through the Red Box material and looking at the DM Screen and the tokens. On the DM screen there's a picture of some Drow, and in the tokens there is a Dragonborn hero. The pictures were captivating enough that my kids decided they would like to make some new characters of said races. I was all for it - let's do it. After flipping through our material I realized, not only did I not really know how to make a new character from scratch, (perhaps I could have guessed/made one up from the Red Box), I didn't even know where to go to find the material. Google search...The Players Handbook sounds like the place, but as the Dr points out above, there are 3 of those. We're only a month into this so I don't want to buy a pile of books yet.

Maybe I'm just wishing for a middle ground that's difficult to find, but from my first impressions D&D is similar to chess. When someone shows an interest in chess you wouldn't plunk a big 300 page book of advanced Openings in front of them - that would turn people off.

Anyway, I keep saying the same thing over and over. Perhaps I'm just lazy and was hoping for a shortcut. I'll pickup the Rules Compendium and whichever Heroes book it was that covered the additional races (Kindoms I think). I'll put in a week or two of study in addtion to our current Harkenwold campaign to (try to) get ahead of the kids and see where we go from there.

Thanks again for the advice and suggestions from all.

Dad to D&D Boys

 

[S'mon]

Your best bet for Drow & Dragonborn is "Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms" which will also tell you how to make PCs from scratch. It has the Druid, Paladin, Ranger & Warlock classes. For Fighter, Wizard, Cleric & Rogue you need "Heroes of the Fallen Lands". They also have a selection of mostly-different magic items in each.

I think that may be all you need for a while. When you need more DMing resources there's the DM's Kit (edit: I see you have that), and the Monster Vault for lots of monsters. Both have handy tokens and an adventure in each.

 

[S'mon]

Maybe I'm just wishing for a middle ground that's difficult to find, but from my first impressions D&D is similar to chess. When someone shows an interest in chess you wouldn't plunk a big 300 page book of advanced Openings in front of them - that would turn people off.

Overall I think WoTC did a very poor job with the Red Box. New players and GMs need something a lot more substantial, with proper character-creation rules, and time to get familiar with the game before they have to buy more material. Lots of people seem to buy the Red Box but not get any further. They need a proper Basic Set again, like the Pathfinder Beginner Box (covers levels 1-5) or the Mentzer Basic Red Box from which they took the Red Box cover art.

 

[DadToD&DBoys]

S'mon - Thanks for breaking down the Fallen Lands and Forgotten Kingdoms classes. It looks like we'll need both books (my oldest wants to be a Drow Cleric, and the youngest wants to be a Dragonborn Knight).

None of the books look particularly expensive, but I have to ask again... "Why do they make this so difficult?" I feel I'm being manipulated in a seedy way. 'Buy this, and that and this other thing and piece your own information together.' Don't get me wrong, this forum is great and the people here are very helpful, but here I am - a customer that wants to learn and buy the right stuff (without wasting money) but without you guys I'd be buying books that would only give me part of what I need.

It seems many of these books repeat much of the same material anyway, why not combine them. I'm sure they'd make more $$$ having one comprehensive book that gave me everything I need in one place rather than forcing me to buy bits and pieces with me not really sure if what I need is in this or that unclearly titled book (Should the title "Heroes of the Fallen Lands" mean something to me? - it doesn't).

Sorry ... [taking breath, stopping complaining] ... again, thanks for your help ... grin

Question - implement. Can someone please enlighten me (direct me to the right book or explain) as to how a cleric attack bonus works when using their weapon as an implement. Are they still using the weapon as a weapon or just channeling magic through it? I can't remember the power but one said something like "Wisdom VS AC" for the attack. My question is would they still get any weapon bonuses in addition to the Wisdom vs AC? Could you also use charge?

Dad to D&D Boys

 

[the Jester]

S'mon - Thanks for breaking down the Fallen Lands and Fallen Kingdoms classes. It looks like we'll need both books (my oldest wants to be a Drow Cleric, and the youngest wants to be a Dragonborn Knight).

None of the books look particularly expensive, but I have to ask again... "Why do they make this so difficult?" I feel I'm being manipulated in a seedy way. 'Buy this, and that and this other thing and piece your own information together.' Don't get me wrong, this forum is great and the people here are very helpful, but here I am - a customer that wants to learn and buy the right stuff (without wasting money) but without you guys I'd be buying books that would only give me part of what I need. It seems many of these books repeat much of the same material anyway, why not combine them.

The issue is the sheer amount of content.

The 'Heroes' books are great, small, easy-entry books, designed so that you can play the game with just one of them as your "player book"; that's why there is repeated information in them, because you have to be able to play with only one of those books.

You really only need them both if you're playing stuff from both of them. A lot of dms traditionally limit what they allow as options, so you could always just tell your kids, "Sorry, Heroes of the x material only".

HOWEVER, it's more fun to have more stuff in the game (IMHO).

On that note- if you get a Players Handbook, you'll have everything you need to play dragonborn, fighters (though not the knight subclass) and clerics (though not the warpriest subclass), along with a bunch of other classic material- paladins, wizards, warlocks, eladrin, elves, humans, tieflings, etc.

I'm sure they'd make more $$$ having one comprehensive book that gave me everything I need in one place rather than forcing me to buy bits and pieces with me not really sure if what I need is in this or that unclearly titled book (Should the title "Heroes of the Fallen Lands" mean something to me? - it doesn't).

4e's marketing has been... maybe not the best. The Essentials line was actually produced to help with that very problem.

Clearly, despite the best of intentions, it didn't work well for new players. And the Red Box, while a fun and awesome introduction to roleplaying games, makes a fairly poor introduction to D&D per se since it doesn't tell you stuff like how to make a character.

Question - implement. Can someone please enlighten me (direct me to the right book or explain) as to how a cleric attack bonus works when using their weapon as an implement. Are they still using the weapon as a weapon or just channeling magic through it? I can't remember the power but one said something like "Wisdom VS AC" for the attack. My question is would they still get any weapon bonuses in addition to the Wisdom vs AC? Could you also use charge?

Dad to D&D Boys

Using a weapon as an implement works just like using it as a weapon EXCEPT that you don't get the proficiency bonus to attacks. You do still get magic bonuses (e.g. from your +2 magic dagger).

Hope this helps!

 

[DadToD&DBoys]

Jester - thank you for the implement information. Just to reiterate - no proficiency bonus, but flanking, or changing, or other combat advantage conditions still apply as if they were attacking with weapon correct?

Regarding the different books... Your explanation of the volume of information makes sense. I understand that I'm new to this game that's been around for 40 years. It was explained to me as a game that was different in that it had no boundaries and was only limited by your imagination. I've let the kids run with that and they're loving it.

'I can do anything I want?' - Yeah, anything.

'Can I head-butt attack?' - Go for it, 'roll'.

'If I sneak up behind then can I lick them' - (?!?!) - 'roll'.

So we haven't got to the limiting of options yet - grin.

Dad to D&D Boys

 

[the Jester]

Jester - thank you for the implement information. Just to reiterate - no proficiency bonus, but flanking, or changing, or other combat advantage conditions still apply as if they were attacking with weapon correct?

Welll- yes, but....

Taking charge as an example, when you charge, you make a melee basic attack- which is a weapon power, not an implement power (though some classes might have an implement power that they can use on a charge or as a MBA; I don't know off hand).

Flanking, OTOH, applies as long as you and an ally are on opposite sides of an enemy and adjacent to it, and grants you combat advantage against the enemy. CA gives a +2 to attacks of any sort, so you could even shoot a bow and get the flanking bonus (though you would trigger an opportunity attack for making a ranged attack).

Also, regarding weapons as implements- looking it up in the RC now, I was wrong earlier, there is another difference: its weapon properties don't apply, such as high crit, brutal, reach, versatile, etc.

Here's a bit more on the subject of magic weapons as implements for you:

When an adventurer uses a magic version of the weapon as an implement, he or she can use the weapon's enhancement bonus, critical hit effects, properties, and powers. However, some magic weapons have properties and powers that work only with weapon powers. Also, a weapon's range and damage dice are usually irrelevant to an implement power, since such a power has its own range and damage expression.

Any powers that are weapon-only will be (or should be) called out in the individual magic weapon's description.

Regarding the different books... Your explanation of the volume of information makes sense. I understand that I'm new to this game that's been around for 40 years. It was explained to me as a game that was different in that it had no boundaries and was only limited by your imagination. I've let the kids run with that and they're loving it.

'I can do anything I want?' - Yeah, anything.

'Can I head-butt attack?' - Go for it, 'roll'.

'If I sneak up behind then can I lick them' - (?!?!) - 'roll'.

So we haven't got to the limiting of options yet - grin.

Dad to D&D Boys

Oh, absolutely! But there's a difference between "What do you want to do?" type of allowing anything and allowing anything in play.

For instance, would you let your kids play demon princes? Or do you feel those are better reserved as big bad guys?

But I gotta say, having more options is better than having fewer. The Heroes books are great, and they aren't redundant to the Players Handbook (there are a few overlapping powers, but all the class builds are different). You can also download free pdfs of updates of several of the PH versions, with all the errata and updates incorporated, from the WotC site, wizards.com/dnd.

One more thing about the sheer volume of material available for D&D- it's awesome and intimidating and the thing is, you really don't need much of it. One Heroes book and the Monster Vault and you're probably set.

If you do decide to invest heavily in D&D, watch out that you don't accidentally grab up some older edition material by mistake. You won't be able to use it easily with 4e, the game is very different from older versions. Also, be aware that a new edition of the game is a year or two away, so don't feel cheated by any money you spend now on that account.

Older edition material is very fun reading, though, especially 1e with its "Gygaxian prose".

A note about the cost- I don't think you will ever find a better return of fun per dollar than you get out of D&D stuff. I still use material that I bought in the 80s (albeit often with a little conversion work). I have thousands of dollars of D&D stuff, and I've easily lowered my cost for what is basically the most fun activity I regularly participate in to pennies per hour.

 

[Trit One-Ear]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned DDI as an alternative for buying books. As a somewhat new DM myself, Wizard's online D&D membership has been a great tool for me. While it doesn't really teach you -how- to play or run things (for that, the books have no substitute) you can avoid, for the most part, buying stacks of books just to get access to new races/classes/feats etc.
The character builder is updated somewhat regularly and, again while it doesn't teach you how to make characters, it does so a majority of the work for you. I find a monthly payment a much more attractive alternative to buying book after book. Plus you get all the other little tools and access to the online articles. The tools may leave something to be desired, but they can be helpful if you want to use them.

All this being said, if I had my druthers, an infinite about of storage space and disposable income, I'd rely solely on the books. There's something gained from flipping through books as opposed to click through internet tabs.

Trit

 

[jffdougan]

I think that, even if you don't subscribe to DDI, you can still search the Compendium; you just can't pull up the detailed entries.

As others have noted, picking up either Heroes of the Fallen Lands or the Forgotten Kingdoms is a pretty good idea based on what you've said you own.