New Tunnels & Trolls first look at UK Games Expo. Update: Beta releaseed.

[Some Dude]

It doesn't seem to have stopped a number of various companies over the years.

• Rolemaster reinventing itself, then going back to closer to RM 1e rules...
  • Similar for Spacemaster
• the licensee for Twilight 2013... but it was not edition compatibility; it was that T2K 2e was compatible with Dark Conspiracy 1e and Traveller the New Era, but Twilight: 2013 (the 3rd edition) was not compatible with any other edition, and the setting was somewhat different.
• Fantasy Flight Games with WFRP 3 and L5R 5
• Avalon Hill with RuneQuest Slayers (not even similar settings nor mechanics. Not bad, but totally different. AH was bought and RQS didnt see release until the contract returned ownership to the author)
• Wizards with 3E, 4E, and 5E
• Cubicle 7 and the various Warhammer properties (the FFG versions of 40K were intercompatible...)
• Free League and T2K 4e - again, a 2e compatible would have been compatible with DC1e and T:TNE - both of which have active fanbases.
• Every official licensed Star Trek game is new, with only FASA and Modphius' versions gettting a second edition.
• the various official star wars games

Not sure any of these have had continuous and compatible rulesets as long as T&T, but this kind of reinforces my point. As I've said previously (here or elsewhere, I can't remember), games that take an established set of rules with a fanbase and make sweeping changes are rarely popular or successful. T2K 4th edition is doing well enough, from what I understand, but there are exceptions to every rule. And while I understand the creative impulse to slaughter sacred cows, I'm not sure it's a good idea commercially. I'm one of the few people who likes Over the Edge 3rd edition better than the previous ones. But that is a minority opinion, as OtE 3e's commercial failure clearly illustrates.

Scott Malthouse has made a thread on BlueSky discussing a bit of his reasoning behind T&T: A New Age.

https://bsky.app/profile/voxparlour.bsky.social%2Fpost%2F3m6txwdnjyc25

I like Scott. I was excited when he took over the design of nu-T&T. But I just haven't liked what I've seen so far. Scott says, "We want to honour the game by evolving it." But this seems like a "baby with the bathwater" approach. Scott also says, "T&T hasn't moved on design-wise for decades. That consistency is great, but it also feels like a dinosaur in a modern context. Some people dig that, others don't. We want a game that new players can really easily grasp, where they can feel empowered by the rules." And while I understand wanting to address issues of balance in T&T, and to modernize it, this is more than an "evolution." Besides which, the OSR attracts plenty of younger players, so I'm not really sure I agree that older automatically equals less accessible. I'd go one further and say that T&T 5e is easier to grok than T&T-ANA by orders of magnitude. And an evolution implies successive changes over time. This feels more like an entirely different set of rules with a couple of terms from T&T applied to the surface like a decal.

I'm legitimately curious, for those who have played this new version, does it "feel" like T&T in play? Why or why not? I haven't gotten it to the table, and my interest in this project has been waning since the alpha. I realize that not every game is for every player. And I do not wish to wax negative. And while I know I'll never play all the games I own, I try to limit my purchases to games I am at least interested in playing. So far, I'm not feeling that with nu-T&T. I would love to change my mind.

T&T is my favorite game, so I definitely have a bias towards older rules. But I also study T&T's rules a lot, and objectively, it definitely has flaws. So I'm not saying I'd only accept the rules as they were. But this all seems a bridge too far for me. Alas. Still, I hope Rebellion does well with it.

 

[The Soloist]

This is the same discussion as with the new Traveller based on D&D 5e. If it's not for you keep playing the version you like.

Sorry to say this but the T&T community is very small. It generated only 1,638 backers for the Deluxe edition. That's very low for a venerable RPG like T&T. It either means the player base mysteriously keeps dying off in real life or there is no interest.

It makes sense to would rewrite the rules to capture larger audience. edit (more so because they paid several 10 of thousands dollars for the game. They want their money back.)

 

[darjr]

This is the same discussion as with Traveller 5e based on D&D. If it's not for you keep playing the version you like.

Sorry to say this but the T&T community is very small. It generated only 1,638 backers for the Deluxe edition. That's very low for a venerable RPG like T&T. It either means the player base mysteriously keep dying off in real life or there is no interest.

It makes sense to would rewrite the rules to capture larger audience.

I dunno. That’s pretty good for most RPGs. What have others in it’s class done?

 

[The Soloist]

I dunno. That’s pretty good for most RPGs. What have others in it’s class done?

You are making my point for me. The decades have past, there is no real interest for these old game systems. Labyrinth Lords, OSRIC, OSE, The Fantasy Trip, Dark Dungeons, are all nostalgia boutique games for men 55 plus years (I'm one of them).

ShadowDark, with a modernized BX feel with some 5e style rules scored, 13,249 backers. That is what Renegade is looking for and more! They need to get back their money they invested to buy T&T.

 

[darjr]

You are making my point for me. The decades have past, there is no real interest for these old game systems. Labyrinth Lords, OSRIC, OSE, The Fantasy Trip, Dark Dungeons, are all nostalgia boutique games for men 55 plus years (I'm one of them).

ShadowDark, with a modernized BX feel with some 5e style rules scored, 13,249 backers. That is what Renegade is looking for and more! They need to get back their money they invested to buy T&T.

Most RPGs don’t do as well as freaking Shadowdark!
Lol

 

[Some Dude]

This is the same discussion as with the new Traveller based on D&D 5e. If it's not for you keep playing the version you like.

Sorry to say this but the T&T community is very small. It generated only 1,638 backers for the Deluxe edition. That's very low for a venerable RPG like T&T. It either means the player base mysteriously keeps dying off in real life or there is no interest.

It makes sense to would rewrite the rules to capture larger audience. edit (more so because they paid several 10 of thousands dollars for the game. They want their money back.)

I can't think of a worse fit for D&D that Traveller. But I feel that way about D&D for anything that isn't... well, D&D.

No one is arguing that Rebellion doesn't own T&T, or that they can't do what they like with it. That'd just be silly.

It's perfectly natural to compare and even criticiize new editions of classic RPGs, even ones with small fan bases. Thats's been happening since editions became a thing. It isn't new, it isn't uncommon, and it's not unreasonable.

Before the latest Talislanta Kickstarter, it was announced that the new edition would be for 5E D&D. There was palpable disappointment. It was only thanks to the OGL debacle that the Epic edition was written using the classic Talislanta rules, with 5E conversions.

No one is saying that should or is going to happen here. But T&T old heads' reaction to nu-T&T isn't an abberation. It's perfectly understandable, given that Scott Malthouse has been a big supporter of T&T throughout the years. Rebellion's CEO talking about how much he loved T&T back in the day may have had something to do with setting expectations as well.

Ultimately, people aren't dissatisfied because nu-T&T is not just like classic T&T. They're dissatisfied because it's nothing like classic T&T. The fact that many old time Delvers have tons of house rules proves that T&T isn't sacrosanct to them, and they can see room for improvement. But some view this as replacement.

Of course Rebellion is free to do whatever they want with an IP that they own. Just as we gamers and potential consumers are free to decide it isn't for us. I bear Rebellion no ill will. I don't think they have done anything "wrong." I hope their new version of T&T is wildly successful. I hope they captire the market they're aiming for, and then some. It just isn't my cup of tea.

I won't pretend I'm not disappointed, however. I had high hopes for a new edition. Especially since the game languished for years under the stewardship of Webbed Sphere. And though Ken St. Andre has continued publishing Monsters! Monsters!, sister game to T&T, he has also gone all in on AI slop, and has also gone full "email from your Libertarian grandpa." So, I'd rather not spend my money there.

Ah, well, I have plenty of T&T stuff to keep me happy.

I dunno. That’s pretty good for most RPGs. What have others in it’s class done?

Deluxe T&T made almost 5 times its goal. Hard to see that as anything but a success.

 

[UnplayedRanger]

It’s unclear how we can download the beta?