New Tunnels & Trolls first look at UK Games Expo. Update: Beta releaseed.

[eyeheartawk]

It reminds me of the interview Ben Milton did with Mike Mearls. Mike effectively said you either cater to your existing fans or fire them and try to get new fans. This reads very much like the latter. It just seems so weird. The small but dedicated fanbase of T&T apparently just wasn’t enough…but they still bought the IP despite that.

All T&T has is its unique ruleset, minimalist wold building and its silly adjacent tone. Okay, fair enough.

Now, we want an established name that people know and recognize and we'll strip it of its unique ruleset, completely change the setting and get rid of the silly tone.

Well, okay, but then what's the point.

Do you guys remember that they brought back Alternity?

Yeah, you don't, because it came out and nobody cared. Why?

Because it had completely different rules and none of the multiple settings of the original. So it was a new, sci-fi game that had nothing in common with the original game besides the name.

I'm pretty sure that's what's going to happen here.

 

[The Soloist]

All T&T has is its unique ruleset, minimalist wold building and its silly adjacent tone. Okay, fair enough.

Now, we want an established name that people know and recognize and we'll strip it of its unique ruleset, completely change the setting and get rid of the silly tone.

Well, okay, but then what's the point.

Do you guys remember that they brought back Alternity?

Yeah, you don't, because it came out and nobody cared. Why?

Because it had completely different rules and none of the multiple settings of the original. So it was a new, sci-fi game that had nothing in common with the original game besides the name.

I'm pretty sure that's what's going to happen here.

It’s not the same, the Alternity 2e designers did not own the rights. Just the name of the game. You don’t hear about alternity 2e because sasquawsh studio abadonned the project and stop communicating. It was a stupid idea, just like Star Frontiers 2e was.

Renegade owns the rights to everything T&T, except Monster! Monter! I’m pretty sure it will have moderate to great success because they are a well established company with a large client email list.

 

[Some Dude]

It’s not the same, the Alternity 2e designers did not own the rights. Just the name of the game. You don’t hear about alternity 2e because sasquawsh studio abadonned the project and stop communicating. It was a stupid idea, just like Star Frontiers 2e was.

Renegade owns the rights to everything T&T, except Monster! Monter! I’m pretty sure it will have moderate to great success because they are a well established company with a large client email list.

Rebellion Unplugged's largest tabletop Kickstarter (Joyride) brought in a little less than Deluxe T&T. Their only roleplaying kickstarter, for Tiny in the Tower (granted, it didn't have an established name attached), brought in roughly 10% of what Deluxe T&T did.

 

[darjr]

Oh yea. Dolmenwood did over a million. 10k backers too?

 

[The Soloist]

nvm

 

[aramis erak]

All T&T has is its unique ruleset, minimalist wold building and its silly adjacent tone. Okay, fair enough.

Now, we want an established name that people know and recognize and we'll strip it of its unique ruleset, completely change the setting and get rid of the silly tone.

They haven't ditched the silly tone. At least not in beta.

 

[Some Dude]

They haven't ditched the silly tone. At least not in beta.

I agree, but the overall tone is a lot less "cynical," and it's a noticeable difference. I recently saw someone describe T&T as "low fantasy in a high magic setting," and that was probably the best short description I've seen since Ken's "Lord of the Rings, as it might have been told by Marvel Comics in the 1970s." The new version does have some silliness, but it seems a bit too... sweet, too sterile, somehow. And the cutesy animal folk aren't really doing anything to disabuse me of that notion. Just my personal preference, at the end of the day. But it's a definite change.

And while I'll be the first to admit that some of the old game's "humor" needed to go, this is nonetheless a very different tone to the original. Much in the same way that D&D 5E is noticeably different in tone than AD&D.

 

[eyeheartawk]

It’s not the same, the Alternity 2e designers did not own the rights. Just the name of the game. You don’t hear about alternity 2e because sasquawsh studio abadonned the project and stop communicating. It was a stupid idea, just like Star Frontiers 2e was.

Renegade owns the rights to everything T&T, except Monster! Monter! I’m pretty sure it will have moderate to great success because they are a well established company with a large client email list.

I stand corrected then, I had assumed it actually was released to an audience of none. I'm guessing Sasquash saw the writing on the wall and stopped throwing good money after bad.

 

[aramis erak]

For what it's worth, @Some Dude, Corgi also felt the humor was too thick in the rules... I wish I still had my Corgi ed (it was stolen, sort of), as it's removed the silly spell names. Otherwise, it's just a slightly better laid out T&T 5.0.

And the cynical humor? Not much in the 5e rules, a little in 7e, but if you don't play the solos, you don't encounter most of the cynical side. Much more evident in any version of Monsters! Monsters! (NB to non-T&T fans: the s at the end is to indicate that it's intended for parties of monsters, not single big bad monster. As in, the PCs are monsters. It was to play the raiders. Very cynical.)

I was never a fan of the cynical side, and strongly disagree with the low fantasy in a high magic world - my parties have always been caster-rich. Usually 1-2 fighters, 2 rogues and 1-2 wizards. (NB: remember, T&T rogues are NOT theif-types, but rogue wizards) Magic has been abundant and potent.

And, thanks to Slush-Yuck, and its wording in T&T 5.0, castles' walls are seamless granite...

 

[Some Dude]

For what it's worth, @Some Dude, Corgi also felt the humor was too thick in the rules... I wish I still had my Corgi ed (it was stolen, sort of), as it's removed the silly spell names. Otherwise, it's just a slightly better laid out T&T 5.0.

Pretty sure you're not getting the point I was trying to make about the "humor." I was specifically referring to the racist spell name, "Yassa Massa", which Corgi inexplicably left intact. In fact, Corgi's re-naming of spells was utterly baffling. Renaming some spells, presumably for being too "silly," while leaving other, equally goofy spell names as is. I'd love to know what the thought process was there.

I'm also referring to things like using the term, "broads," which T&T stopped doing after 4th edition.

I was never a fan of the cynical side, and strongly disagree with the low fantasy in a high magic world - my parties have always been caster-rich. Usually 1-2 fighters, 2 rogues and 1-2 wizards. (NB: remember, T&T rogues are NOT theif-types, but rogue wizards) Magic has been abundant and potent.

And, thanks to Slush-Yuck, and its wording in T&T 5.0, castles' walls are seamless granite...

Again, not sure you're picking up what I'm laying down. "Low fantasy" in this case refers to the earthier, less heroic nature of T&T vs., say, D&D. Lack of alignment, no clear-cut "good vs. evil" tropes baked into the rules, etc. When I said, "in a high magic world," I meant just that - magic is common. I intended no distinction between the world as a whole and the players.