New UA Paladin Sacred Oaths are Oath of Conquest and the Oath of Treachery



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Wow, now it seems there are more evil paladin oaths then good guy oaths (if you count DMG). THat feels.....really weird, since I grew up with paladins being the pinnacle of good.

Hmm ...

2 "Good" Oaths (Devotion, Ancients)
2 "Neutral" Oaths (Vengeance, Crown)
3 "Evil" Oaths (Oathbreaker, Conquest, Treachery)

Yeah ...
 

Jeff Carlsen

Adventurer
I have to reject both of these. The don't feel like paladins. They don't even feel like oaths. The Oath of Conquest could work, if it focused on conquering a particular location. The Oath of Treachery is just an alternative to the oathbreaker rules.

I wouldn't mind an Oath of Liberty. I know people who loved that concept in 3E. I could also see an Oath of Law. A Lawful Neutral paladin with a borderline tyrannical faith in the law. Judge Dredd as a Paladin.
 




Sacrosanct

Legend
Conquest should've been more about martial and war religion than lawful evil hell knights. No need to narrow it.

Agreed. When I was first starting to read it, I was thinking of the actual historical knights like the Templars. Crushing your enemies is hardly limited to demons and devils. The Church has a pretty storied history of taking that approach in the past as well ;)
 

It's up. Initial thoughts:

Conquest's flavor is ... disappointing. Would've much preferred it be strictly of a military bent, or like that of a Crusader. The Nine Hells flavor (which I get is optional, granted) just comes out of left field. Don't particularly care for the fact you have to be a strong-armed tyrant after, either.

Treachery is just another way to be a Blackguard/Oathbreaker. Ehhh ...

Hellknights are popular in Pathfinder, and based on their products (not to mention good sense), I suspect WotC/Paizo keep track of what works/doesn't work with each other's products. It is part of the reason summoning is weaker in 5e, and the mystic has a connection to the Far Realm (to give that creepy feeling like the Occult classes [basically PF psychic classes] in PF). It isn't all one-way, the PF witch is pretty much a 4e warlock without eldritch blast (which wasn't so important in 4e).

Still, it wouldn't have hurt for them to throw in a "good" paladin oath or 2 to balance out the bad ones.
 

Patrick McGill

First Post
I like treachery. I hadn't thought of having alternatives to oath reakers., but as a dm who likes evil fallen Paladin npcs I'm happy with it.

Paladin as a whole is in a really good place this edition so I'm ambivalent to the hell knight.
 

Vymair

First Post
Pass, I play a paladin to be a hero that people admire, not fear. I see some value for interesting NPCs here, but not for player characters.
 

gyor

Legend
I notice the irony that because Oath of Treachery has no tenents, you can be a Lawful Good Oath of Treachery Paladin, there is absolutely nothing that requires or encourages evil unlike like Oath Breaker.

And the Oath of Conquest Paladin has clearly been inspired by Pathfinder's Hellknights BIG time. For FR I can see Oath of Conquest Paladins for Tempus, Bane, Lovitar, Abbathor, Tiamat, Gilgamesh, Set, Sebek, Anhur maybe, Helm (rarely), the Grey Dwarf Gods, Various Archdevils, Garuth, Garagos, Grazzt dispite being Chaotic he's still master of Tyranny, Talona, Shar.

How is this for an irony, a Lawful Evil Oath of Conquest Paladin can fall by doing a act of mercy and kindness to become a Lawful Good Oath of Treachery Paladin.
 

I think they're trying to get at least 1 Paladin Oath for each alignment. With Protection (LG), Ancients (NG), Vengeance (N), Crown (LN), Oathbreaker (NE), Conquest (LE), and Treachery (CE).

They just need to fill out CG and CN. I feel they just need to think of something distinct for those 2 alignments and then there'll be one of each alignment.

Many have proposed Liberation of CG, as that existed before. It just needs it's mechanics and story background that make it different enough from Protection and Ancients.

I have my idea of Madness for CN, which would be about delusions, insanity and possibly Great Old Ones.
 

Litania

First Post
I disagree with everyone who is saying they don't feel like paladins. Oath of treachery conjures up multiple classical figures for me, from lich king Arthas to lord Soth in Dragonlance. As for someone who read the original Oathbreaker and thought: "undead? Why?" I love having this option.
The other oaths we have are already flexible enough that we didn't really need new archetypes. Chaos paladin and alternate evil paladin are good to me.
 

gyor

Legend
I'd just use the Oath of Treachery as a stand in for the Oath of Liberty (and yes the idea is based on the Holy Liberator PrC from 3e).
 

I would not be surprised if the Big Book of Crunch has a DM section where these paladins and the skeezy bards end up.

They sure seem to be providing a lot of creepy options, but I agree that under the current AP release rate, it would be a bad decision to release an evil AP. Of course, if they started releasing more AP's......

It might be they are doing more then one book.
In 4th you had the books Heroes of shadoe and Heroes of the feywild.
Heroes Of shadow had shadowfelloptions and some more evel class options ( we seen plently of those in the UA so far)
And heroes of the feywild had fey based options and we also have seen a number of those in the UA articles.
 


gyor

Legend
I think they're trying to get at least 1 Paladin Oath for each alignment. With Protection (LG), Ancients (NG), Vengeance (N), Crown (LN), Oathbreaker (NE), Conquest (LE), and Treachery (CE).

They just need to fill out CG and CN. I feel they just need to think of something distinct for those 2 alignments and then there'll be one of each alignment.

Many have proposed Liberation of CG, as that existed before. It just needs it's mechanics and story background that make it different enough from Protection and Ancients.

I have my idea of Madness for CN, which would be about delusions, insanity and possibly Great Old Ones.

I'm thinking of say an Aura of Freedom which acts like a always on Freedom of Movement spell for everyone in the Aura.

Maybe a channel divinity that dispels one negative effect from an ally and another CD that turns fiends and constructs (like Modrons, Shield Guardians, Ineviblies, Golems, Eidelons which represent order).

A feature that grants advanage to attacks when out numbered.

And a Capstone called Avatar of Liberty that gives you an aura that boosts speed in yourself and allies, causes attacking enemies to have disadvantage, and bonus radiant damage.
 

gyor

Legend
I think they're trying to get at least 1 Paladin Oath for each alignment. With Protection (LG), Ancients (NG), Vengeance (N), Crown (LN), Oathbreaker (NE), Conquest (LE), and Treachery (CE).

They just need to fill out CG and CN. I feel they just need to think of something distinct for those 2 alignments and then there'll be one of each alignment.

Many have proposed Liberation of CG, as that existed before. It just needs it's mechanics and story background that make it different enough from Protection and Ancients.

I have my idea of Madness for CN, which would be about delusions, insanity and possibly Great Old Ones.

A lovecraftian Oath, I like it. Alternately an Oath to a Slaadi/Batrachi Lord or a deity of pure chaos.
 

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