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<blockquote data-quote="dave2008" data-source="post: 7863853" data-attributes="member: 83242"><p>Thank you for the heads up!</p><p></p><p>Of course WotC just released a new class. That being said, if you want new classes and your not willing to look outside WotC I understand your pain. It is not mine, but I get it. </p><p></p><p> I have read them, and typically the responses in thread contain an equal number of respondents saying high level play works just fine. And I assume you are aware of this as well since you imply you are familiar with those threads (but perhaps you don't read the comments). If you check me out at all you will see I am an advocate of high level play and have stated out over 150 epic level 5e monsters, gods, demon lords etc. on these forums. I've made them stronger than the official monsters because I believe the official monsters are too weak. However, that has not been my experience in play with one of my groups. So, from a design standpoint i agree high level monsters are weak, that isn't the same as saying high-level play doesn't work. Also, from this work I have interacted with a lot of people who have played 5e at high levels, to lvl 20 and beyond (with epic bonuses or some of the 3PP for lvl 20-30). So I know 5e does or at least can work just fine at high level. Finally as i mentioned everything is going great with my groups that are level 12 and lvl 15. Perhaps it will change dramatically over the next 5 levels, but I doubt it.</p><p></p><p> I don't disagree with that idea, but their goal is to sell 100,000 copies of any book they produce. Perhaps that is their roadblock to producing the content you want. I think there is room to expand and you would think they have the space to do it. I just think they have been pretty clear that they are going to expand very, very slowly.</p><p></p><p> Find it hard to believe you can't find what your looking for within D&D unless you are just sticking to WotC stuff. But if you can't good luck. Personally my groups already think WotC has produced to much content:</p><p>[spoiler]</p><p><strong>Classes:</strong></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Artificer<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Alchemist</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Artillerist</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Battle Smith</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Barbarian<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Path of the Berserker</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Path of the Totem Warrior</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Path of the Battlerager</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Path of the Totem Warrior</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Path of the Ancestral Guardian</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Path of the Storm Herald</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Path of the Zealot</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Bard<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">College of Lore</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">College of Valor</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">College of Glamor</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">College of Swords</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">College of Whispers</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">College of Eloquence (UA)</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Cleric<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Arcana</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Death</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Destruction (Jetpack7)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Forge</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Grave</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Knowledge</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Life</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Light</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Nature</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Order</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Prophecy (Jetpack7)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Tempest</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Trickery</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Twilight (UA)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">War</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Druid<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Circle of the Land</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Circle of the Moon</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Circle of Spores</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Circle of Dreams</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Circle of the Shepherd</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Circle of Wildfire (UA)</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Fighter<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Champion</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Battle Master</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Eldritch Knight</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Purple Dragon Knight</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Arcane Archer</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Cavalier</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Samurai</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Psychic Warrior (UA)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Rune Knight (UA)</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Monk<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Way of the Open Hand</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Way of the Shadow</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Way of the Four Element</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Way of the Long Death</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Way of the Sun Soul</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Way of the Drunken Fist</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Way of the Kensei</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Mystic (UA)<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Order of the Avatar</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Order of the Awakened</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Order of the Immortal</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Order of the Nomad</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Order of the Soul knife</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Order of the Wu Jen</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Paladin<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Oath of Devotion</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Oath of Heroism (UA)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Oath of the Ancients</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Oath of the Crown</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Oath of Vengeance</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Oath of Conquest</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Oath of Redemption</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Ranger<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Hunter</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Beast Master</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Gloom Stalker</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Horizon Walker</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Monster Slayer</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Swarm Keeper (UA)</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Revised Ranger<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Beast Conclave</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Hunter Conclave</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Deep Stalker Conclave</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Rogue<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Thief</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Arcane Trickster</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Assassin</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Mastermind</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Swashbuckler</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Inquisitive</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Scout</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Soul knife (UA)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The Revived (UA)</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Sorcerer<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Draconic Bloodline</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Wild Magic</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Storm Bloodline</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Divine Soul</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Shadow Magic</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Warlock<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Archfey</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Archfiend</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Great Old One</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Celestial</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Hexblade</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Pact of the Chain</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Pact of the Blade</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Pact of the Tome</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Undying Pact</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Wizard<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Abjuration</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Conjuration</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Divination</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Enchantment</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Evocation</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Illusion</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Necromancy</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Transmutation</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Bladesinger</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">War Magic</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Onomancy (UA)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Psion (UA)</li> </ul></li> </ul><p><strong>Races:</strong></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Dwarf</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Hill Dwarf</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Mountain Dwarf</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Duergar</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Elf</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">High</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Wood</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Drow</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Winter Eladrin</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Summer Eladrin</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Autumn Eadrin</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Spring Eladrin</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Sea Elf</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Shadar-Kai</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Halfling</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Light Foot Halfling</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Stout Halfling</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Ghostwise Halfling</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Human</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Variant Human</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Dragonborn</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Gnome</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Rock</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Forest</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Deep</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Half-Elf</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Half-Orc</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Tiefling</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Asmodean</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Glaysan</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Fiernan</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Mephicilian</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Levistusian</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Zarielian</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Beleezbubian</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Dispaterian</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Mammonian</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Loxodon</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Minotaur</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Simic Hybrid</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Vedalken</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Orc</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Goliaths</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Aarokaa</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Genasi</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Air</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Earth</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Fire</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Water</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Tabaxi</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Aasimar</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Protector Aasimar</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Scourge Aasimar</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Fallen Aasimar</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Firbolg</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Kenku</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Triton</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Hobgoblin</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Goblin</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Bugbear</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Kobolds</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Yuan Ti Pureblood</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Lizardfolk</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Tortles</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Githzerai</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Githyanki</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Tabaxi</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Shifters</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Changelings</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Kalashtar</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Warforged</li> </ul><p></p><p><strong>Backgrounds:</strong></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Acolyte</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Anthropologist</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Archaeologist</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Azorius Functionary</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Boros Legionnaire</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Charlatan</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Criminal</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Dimir Operative</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Entertainer</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Faceless</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Fisher</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Folk Hero</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Golgari Agent</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Gruuul Anarch</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Guild Artisan</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Haunted One</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Hermit</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Izzet Engineer</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Marine</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Noble</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Orzhov Representative</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Outlander</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Rakdos Cultist</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Sage</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Sailor</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Selesnya Initiate</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Shipwright</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Simic Scientist</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Smuggler</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Soldier</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Urchin</li> </ul><p>[/spoiler]</p><p>However, my groups have been playing in the same campaign since 5e started and we are only level 12 & 15 (this one started in 4e) after 5 years, so I understand we are outliers! I've only seen a half dozen classes & archtypes in play over that whole time!</p><p></p><p>Happy gaming to you as well!</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="dave2008, post: 7863853, member: 83242"] Thank you for the heads up! Of course WotC just released a new class. That being said, if you want new classes and your not willing to look outside WotC I understand your pain. It is not mine, but I get it. I have read them, and typically the responses in thread contain an equal number of respondents saying high level play works just fine. And I assume you are aware of this as well since you imply you are familiar with those threads (but perhaps you don't read the comments). If you check me out at all you will see I am an advocate of high level play and have stated out over 150 epic level 5e monsters, gods, demon lords etc. on these forums. I've made them stronger than the official monsters because I believe the official monsters are too weak. However, that has not been my experience in play with one of my groups. So, from a design standpoint i agree high level monsters are weak, that isn't the same as saying high-level play doesn't work. Also, from this work I have interacted with a lot of people who have played 5e at high levels, to lvl 20 and beyond (with epic bonuses or some of the 3PP for lvl 20-30). So I know 5e does or at least can work just fine at high level. Finally as i mentioned everything is going great with my groups that are level 12 and lvl 15. Perhaps it will change dramatically over the next 5 levels, but I doubt it. I don't disagree with that idea, but their goal is to sell 100,000 copies of any book they produce. Perhaps that is their roadblock to producing the content you want. I think there is room to expand and you would think they have the space to do it. I just think they have been pretty clear that they are going to expand very, very slowly. Find it hard to believe you can't find what your looking for within D&D unless you are just sticking to WotC stuff. But if you can't good luck. Personally my groups already think WotC has produced to much content: [spoiler] [B]Classes:[/B] [LIST] [*]Artificer [LIST] [*]Alchemist [*]Artillerist [*]Battle Smith [/LIST] [*]Barbarian [LIST] [*]Path of the Berserker [*]Path of the Totem Warrior [*]Path of the Battlerager [*]Path of the Totem Warrior [*]Path of the Ancestral Guardian [*]Path of the Storm Herald [*]Path of the Zealot [/LIST] [*]Bard [LIST] [*]College of Lore [*]College of Valor [*]College of Glamor [*]College of Swords [*]College of Whispers [*]College of Eloquence (UA) [/LIST] [*]Cleric [LIST] [*]Arcana [*]Death [*]Destruction (Jetpack7) [*]Forge [*]Grave [*]Knowledge [*]Life [*]Light [*]Nature [*]Order [*]Prophecy (Jetpack7) [*]Tempest [*]Trickery [*]Twilight (UA) [*]War [/LIST] [*]Druid [LIST] [*]Circle of the Land [*]Circle of the Moon [*]Circle of Spores [*]Circle of Dreams [*]Circle of the Shepherd [*]Circle of Wildfire (UA) [/LIST] [*]Fighter [LIST] [*]Champion [*]Battle Master [*]Eldritch Knight [*]Purple Dragon Knight [*]Arcane Archer [*]Cavalier [*]Samurai [*]Psychic Warrior (UA) [*]Rune Knight (UA) [/LIST] [*]Monk [LIST] [*]Way of the Open Hand [*]Way of the Shadow [*]Way of the Four Element [*]Way of the Long Death [*]Way of the Sun Soul [*]Way of the Drunken Fist [*]Way of the Kensei [/LIST] [*]Mystic (UA) [LIST] [*]Order of the Avatar [*]Order of the Awakened [*]Order of the Immortal [*]Order of the Nomad [*]Order of the Soul knife [*]Order of the Wu Jen [/LIST] [*]Paladin [LIST] [*]Oath of Devotion [*]Oath of Heroism (UA) [*]Oath of the Ancients [*]Oath of the Crown [*]Oath of Vengeance [*]Oath of Conquest [*]Oath of Redemption [/LIST] [*]Ranger [LIST] [*]Hunter [*]Beast Master [*]Gloom Stalker [*]Horizon Walker [*]Monster Slayer [*]Swarm Keeper (UA) [/LIST] [*]Revised Ranger [LIST] [*]Beast Conclave [*]Hunter Conclave [*]Deep Stalker Conclave [/LIST] [*]Rogue [LIST] [*]Thief [*]Arcane Trickster [*]Assassin [*]Mastermind [*]Swashbuckler [*]Inquisitive [*]Scout [*]Soul knife (UA) [*]The Revived (UA) [/LIST] [*]Sorcerer [LIST] [*]Draconic Bloodline [*]Wild Magic [*]Storm Bloodline [*]Divine Soul [*]Shadow Magic [/LIST] [*]Warlock [LIST] [*]Archfey [*]Archfiend [*]Great Old One [*]Celestial [*]Hexblade [*]Pact of the Chain [*]Pact of the Blade [*]Pact of the Tome [*]Undying Pact [/LIST] [*]Wizard [LIST] [*]Abjuration [*]Conjuration [*]Divination [*]Enchantment [*]Evocation [*]Illusion [*]Necromancy [*]Transmutation [*]Bladesinger [*]War Magic [*]Onomancy (UA) [*]Psion (UA) [/LIST] [/LIST] [B]Races:[/B] [LIST] [*]Dwarf [*]Hill Dwarf [*]Mountain Dwarf [*]Duergar [*]Elf [*]High [*]Wood [*]Drow [*]Winter Eladrin [*]Summer Eladrin [*]Autumn Eadrin [*]Spring Eladrin [*]Sea Elf [*]Shadar-Kai [*]Halfling [*]Light Foot Halfling [*]Stout Halfling [*]Ghostwise Halfling [*]Human [*]Variant Human [*]Dragonborn [*]Gnome [*]Rock [*]Forest [*]Deep [*]Half-Elf [*]Half-Orc [*]Tiefling [*]Asmodean [*]Glaysan [*]Fiernan [*]Mephicilian [*]Levistusian [*]Zarielian [*]Beleezbubian [*]Dispaterian [*]Mammonian [*]Loxodon [*]Minotaur [*]Simic Hybrid [*]Vedalken [*]Orc [*]Goliaths [*]Aarokaa [*]Genasi [*]Air [*]Earth [*]Fire [*]Water [*]Tabaxi [*]Aasimar [*]Protector Aasimar [*]Scourge Aasimar [*]Fallen Aasimar [*]Firbolg [*]Kenku [*]Triton [*]Hobgoblin [*]Goblin [*]Bugbear [*]Kobolds [*]Yuan Ti Pureblood [*]Lizardfolk [*]Tortles [*]Githzerai [*]Githyanki [*]Tabaxi [*]Shifters [*]Changelings [*]Kalashtar [*]Warforged [/LIST] [B]Backgrounds:[/B] [LIST] [*]Acolyte [*]Anthropologist [*]Archaeologist [*]Azorius Functionary [*]Boros Legionnaire [*]Charlatan [*]Criminal [*]Dimir Operative [*]Entertainer [*]Faceless [*]Fisher [*]Folk Hero [*]Golgari Agent [*]Gruuul Anarch [*]Guild Artisan [*]Haunted One [*]Hermit [*]Izzet Engineer [*]Marine [*]Noble [*]Orzhov Representative [*]Outlander [*]Rakdos Cultist [*]Sage [*]Sailor [*]Selesnya Initiate [*]Shipwright [*]Simic Scientist [*]Smuggler [*]Soldier [*]Urchin [/LIST] [/spoiler] However, my groups have been playing in the same campaign since 5e started and we are only level 12 & 15 (this one started in 4e) after 5 years, so I understand we are outliers! I've only seen a half dozen classes & archtypes in play over that whole time! Happy gaming to you as well! [/QUOTE]
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