new ways to do divine casting

[Afrodyte]

I was reading through the PHB and considering some alternative spellcasting options for my campaign, and one thing that really struck me was how the rules that spellcasters are built on do not support the concept they propose. Although people can say a wizards, sorcerers, clerics, paladins, bards, and rangers are different, when it comes to playing, I have never seen their magical abilities roleplayed as anything more than, "I cast Spell X" and a minor note about how many spell slots that uses up. Lately, I have created new rules for sorcerers and wizards, but now that I have a solo campaign with a paladin PC, I have turned my attention to divine casters.

(Disclaimer: If you are not interested in exploring new possibilities with d20-based magic systems that veer far from the spell slot model, please do not respond.)

Like the arcane casters I detailed some time ago, I was going to give divine casters a level-based "prayer bonus," influenced by their Wisdom modifier. However, unlike arcane casters, who have more control over the spells they cast and the effects they wish to have, divine casters more or less depend upon divine favor.

The system I had in mind was instead of the divine caster determining what happens when they pray, "higher powers" dictate the outcome of the divine caster's devotion. Like the arcane casting system, the player rolls 1d20 and adds the prayer bonus and any other modifiers for taking more time to pray, performing religious rituals (like fasting or bathing or devotional song), using a divine focus, etc. The player then tells the DM (aka, the "deity") the result. This result determines the maximum level of the divine favor granted to the caster. The target number for getting these favors depends on level, and it works exactly as the DCs for casting arcane spells, but this is only important for letting the DM know what is available to the caster. Moving right along. The DM would then narrate the effects of the divine caster's efforts. Whatever happens, the caster has no idea (though the player might) what her deity will grant.

For instance, say that the fallen comrade of a cleric of Pelor (5th level, WIS modifier +3) is on the verge of death. The cleric prays for Pelor to bestow his favor onto the fallen comrade, to spare her life this time. The player rolls 1d20 and gets a result of 20. Mechanically, this means that the DM, acting as the deity, may give the cleric a "divine favor" (aka, spell) of up to 3rd level (target numbers for spells start at 5 for 0th level and increase by +5 each additional level; yes, this means TN 50 9th level spells). Just because the cleric of Pelor is pious does not mean that she will automatically gain the most favorable boon. Gods can be a moody bunch, especially when they give great benefits. If Pelor is in a pissy mood, he may just give the cleric enough to keep her fallen friend from dying. But, gods can also be vain, and displays of devotion can move them to do more (either that, or very compassionate to the masochistic things the faithful do to themselves to please the gods). Even for divine casters who do not worship a deity, the results of a "divine favor" is indicative of the power of her faith in her philosophy and way of life. Such belief can sometimes work miracles if it is strong enough.

Of course, praying for specific things may make it easier or harder (I haven't decided which yet) to have these things bestowed. I suppose it would be the caster's reasons for asking that would define which it would be. Things that forward a god's agenda or a particular philosophy would probably be easier to do than things unrelated or opposing them.

I am still unclear what to do about Bards, Druids, and Rangers with their spells. I may need something different for nature-based casters and performance-based casters.

 

[Noldor Elf]

I like the idea of more restricted divine casters and I was planning to restric cleric to only spells that fit their gods portfolio (so no healing for god of destruction, no combat spells for god of peace and healing,...), so here is some comments for your idea.

I like Your system.

It requires some preparation work for DM, as one has to decide at least roughly what type of spells a god may give. Not a big thing unless there is multiple divine casters (with different deities) in the group.

If I understand right the prayer modifier is level + wisdom modifier and praying roll is prayer modifier + D20. With target number being +5/level a 10th level cleric with a wisdom modifier of +5 (quite realistic) would be able to receive a 3rd level spells always. Should there be some kind of limit for spells asked daily?

Highest level spells require VERY high WIS modifier, but if rituals and tempels give sufficient bonus they are not impossible.

 

[Afrodyte]

Actually, the target number for 3rd levl spells is 20. The result of the roll determines the maximum level of the spell the god grants. So a 10th lvl cleric with a +5 WIS modifier will not always be granted those spells. Like I said earlier, it is not the cleric who decides exactly what happens, but the "god" (aka DM).

I would rather attach penalties for asking excessive divine favors as opposed to resorting back to the spell slot system (which is what limiting spells to a number of times per day really is). Once again, deities do have their moods. I could have a secret 1d6 roll that determines the deity's mood for the day. Also, I wrote in my notes that actions not directly furthering the cause of a deity or ideology (for godless clerics) receive a penalty. So, as you say, clerics who follow gods of peace who pray for help in defeating foes will get a penalty to their prayer result. I may simply limit the domains available to godless clerics (via alignment). I'll have to think more on this later. I agree that some sort of limitation needs to be there, but the nature of the limitation should gel with the concept more smoothly than spells per day.

Highest level spells require VERY high WIS modifier, but if rituals and tempels give sufficient bonus they are not impossible.

Exactly. That was my intent. High-level divine favors (they would probably be called miracles at this stage) need more displays of devotion and faith.

 

[Spatzimaus]

It's not a bad idea, although I should point out that most people prefer consistency. You wouldn't want to go into a thick combat hoping that your healer didn't roll badly three times in a row while praying. Like it says in the DMG, randomness favors the bad guys.

I think you could add some flavor without requiring such a complete overhaul. We did something far less extreme IMC; we were annoyed by how little domains mattered, and also how Empower Spell practically became a requirement to get the most out of your spontaneous heals once you got past level 9 or so.

First, drop the "swap for healing/inflict" rules. Then, drop the "+1 domain spell per day" rule.

Instead, what you do is pick one of your Domain spells for each level at the start of the day (just like you had when filling that extra slot previously). Then, you can swap any prepared spell for the selected Domain spell for that spell level. No metamagic allowed, though.

So, for example, Bob is a Cleric 6 who picked Knowledge and Strength as his two domains. At the start of each day, while memorizing his spells for the day he picks 3 domain spells (one for each spell level he can cast).
1> Detect Secret Doors or Endure Elements
2> Detect Thoughts or Bull's Strength
3> Clair* or Magic Vestment
Today, Bob picks Endure Elements, Detect Thoughts, and Clairaudience/Clairvoyance. He can swap his level 1 spells for Endure Elements, his 2s for Detect Thoughts, and his 3s for Clairvoyance. He can change his decisions tomorrow morning if he needs to.

If you want to swap for healing, pick the Healing domain. It'd be stronger anyway, since you could then swap your 6th-level slots for Heal.
Anyway, what this means is that the priests of a god of Fire will be throwing fire spells, not heals/inflicts. Of course, you can still memorize heals in your normal spell slots.

Now, what I really want to do is play a Cleric of Air and Travel... lots of good domain spells to pick from.

 

[Tonguez]

I have used in the past a system whereby Clerical Powers (Ordiances) including Spells are linked directly to a Sacrament (a Religious Ritual) so for instance the Sacrament of Water (wherby the Cleric sprinkles Holy Water to the Four Winds) might be required in order to use Healing Spells

This was mainly as a Roleplaying impetus but could be used in your system so that each Sacrament gives a certain set of Spells of each level (a Spell-Chain like a Unique Domain chosen by the Cleric)

If the Sacrament is performed correctly (roll a Knowledge: Religion check) then Spells of that Ordinace are available and accessed as per your suggested Prayer system. (This then allows both a degree of certainty and a degree of randomness)

You could perhaps allow a Cleric to learn their Domain + one bonus sacrament per level (so a Level 4 Cleric knows 5 Sacraments (Domain + 4 Ordinances) with each Sacrament being linked to a particular ordinance (Spell-chain).

 

[Afrodyte]

You wouldn't want to go into a thick combat hoping that your healer didn't roll badly three times in a row while praying. Like it says in the DMG, randomness favors the bad guys...I think you could add some flavor without requiring such a complete overhaul.

The risk of rolling badly can be countered by being more devoted and faithful. For instance, Joe Cleric, in a very dramatic way of meditating the balance between spirit and flesh (or for the greater glory of his patron god), decides to fast for a week and take vows of celibacy and poverty. Each of these things would confer a bonus to divine favors granted by Joe's deity for the day he does so. I was considering perhaps a +2 bonus for each of these activities. Thus, for fasting, remaining celibate, and disavowing wealth, Joe would get a +6 to his divine favor result for that day. Of course, this also raises the question of what to do when clerics fail to follow through with these actions (say, not fasting when he promised to do so). Let's just say that the powers that be hate it when people break their vows or go against the sacraments of their faith. Of course, clerics can do penance. Say that Joe Cleric had a moment of weakness and ate a morsel of bread while he was supposed to be fasting. Feeling guilty (or fearful of suffering divine retribution), Joe flagellates himself. Joe's self-mutilation, since it is an act of religious devotion, would confer the devotional bonus to divine favors, although he will lose the bonus for breaking his fast. In essence, the more a cleric focuses his life around his faith, the more the powers that be take notice and look favorably upon him. Theoretically, there is no limit to how devoted a cleric can be to a god or philosophy.

I actually don't mind the work it would take to make the system more elegant and conducive to non-tactical roleplaying.