News Digest: Controversy Abounds! New Vampire Edition Details, Green Ronin's Talent Search, 7th Sea

araquael · Apr 8, 2017

Beyond the hypotheticals, the deep theory, the cleverly shaped talking points, the blunt reality is this.

Most books, films and RPGs are worked on by people who are not the most talented, skilled and hard working, but those who had access. They may well be all of those things, but more than anything else, they had access. You get most creative gigs, not by submitting something over and over until someone beholds your shining genius, but because you know someone who knows someone. (This is like most careers, you'll find too).

Top directors? They went to the right film school, or their uncle was a producer, or they followed someone else from theatre. The industry itself couches the discussion in terms of "mentorship" and "reciprocity" but that's what it means. Top authors? Same deal, often - someone in their circle discovered they were writing a book and got them a meeting with an agent. That phenomenon of access is the true gatekeeper. While the RPG creative community is relatively easy to get into, you get to create a name for yourself through that same network access. Traditionally, this network was run by a bunch of pasty dudes. Nothing wrong with that, we're all pasty-acceptant. But for a long time, that's all it was. This broadens it out.

And not only does RPG writing not really pay very well, quite often it doesn't pay at all. Someone with a bunch of established contacts can absorb that loss a lot better. Someone from a middle class background can afford to eat a 1000 dollar loss when Guide to the Flumps Vol 2's funding budget falls through.

The other aspect of the access-network is that if someone new wanders in, they may often be given some fiddly, risky project. Awesome Book of Orcs will be given to the established hand - he asked first, has this body of work already. Out-of-network person, whether they be a woman, or someone not-pasty may be given small bits on Awesome Book of Orcs, and maybe asked to help on Experimental Postmodern Descriptor of Obscure Elf Subclass, which five people read. Even if neither sell, the Awesome Book of Orcs team will get the plaudits: Awesome Book of Orcs is awesome. Look at the talent! Too bad it didn't sell!

On top of all that, the RPG industry is in a constant state of failure - it goes through weird peaking cycles that relies constantly on selling the same sort of thing to the same people over and over. If you want to sell to a new sort of people, you need to reach them, and getting the same set of thing from the same set of people may not actually sell that well outside the constantly shrinking mainstream.

So the best thing you can do for a: out-of-network talent and b: your own product reach is to broaden your appeal. That means access.

And that's not hypothetical.

cmad1977 · Apr 8, 2017

araquael said:
Beyond the hypotheticals, the deep theory, the cleverly shaped talking points, the blunt reality is this.

Most books, films and RPGs are worked on by people who are not the most talented, skilled and hard working, but those who had access. They may well be all of those things, but more than anything else, they had access. You get most creative gigs, not by submitting something over and over until someone beholds your shining genius, but because you know someone who knows someone. (This is like most careers, you'll find too).

Top directors? They went to the right film school, or their uncle was a producer, or they followed someone else from theatre. The industry itself couches the discussion in terms of "mentorship" and "reciprocity" but that's what it means. Top authors? Same deal, often - someone in their circle discovered they were writing a book and got them a meeting with an agent. That phenomenon of access is the true gatekeeper. While the RPG creative community is relatively easy to get into, you get to create a name for yourself through that same network access. Traditionally, this network was run by a bunch of pasty dudes. Nothing wrong with that, we're all pasty-acceptant. But for a long time, that's all it was. This broadens it out.

And not only does RPG writing not really pay very well, quite often it doesn't pay at all. Someone with a bunch of established contacts can absorb that loss a lot better. Someone from a middle class background can afford to eat a 1000 dollar loss when Guide to the Flumps Vol 2's funding budget falls through.

The other aspect of the access-network is that if someone new wanders in, they may often be given some fiddly, risky project. Awesome Book of Orcs will be given to the established hand - he asked first, has this body of work already. Out-of-network person, whether they be a woman, or someone not-pasty may be given small bits on Awesome Book of Orcs, and maybe asked to help on Experimental Postmodern Descriptor of Obscure Elf Subclass, which five people read. Even if neither sell, the Awesome Book of Orcs team will get the plaudits: Awesome Book of Orcs is awesome. Look at the talent! Too bad it didn't sell!

On top of all that, the RPG industry is in a constant state of failure - it goes through weird peaking cycles that relies constantly on selling the same sort of thing to the same people over and over. If you want to sell to a new sort of people, you need to reach them, and getting the same set of thing from the same set of people may not actually sell that well outside the constantly shrinking mainstream.

So the best thing you can do for a: out-of-network talent and b: your own product reach is to broaden your appeal. That means access.

And that's not hypothetical.

But what about the men?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Jester David · Apr 8, 2017

Dualazi said:
It's not that people don't get it, it's that it's a bad analogy and always has been. For one, it seems highly likely that the subjects are watching that game without paying. Since they are neither in the stands (representing the community at large) nor attempting to play the game (become professional creators) their relevance to the discussion at hand is largely moot.

That's a pretty big stretch. You're really focusing on the irrelevant and largely cosmetic parts of the analogy to discredit it.

Dualazi said:
A more pertinent example would be if all three were trying out for the team, and the latter two people were given advantages to allow them to compete where they otherwise wouldn't be able to. That's why this analogy sucks; passively watching a game is something anyone can do, whereas careers and tasks have requirements that need to be met. Suggesting that some people should have lowered requirements or additional help not given to others in this regard has many troubling implications and I find it to be insulting to all involved.

Yes.
However, certain people applying for careers are societal given said advantage. They start with an advantage. While other start with a bias and outright disadvantage.

Dualazi said:
Especially as it pertains to writing jobs, there's little reason why they couldn't devise a submission method where name/gender/ethnicity are blanked out initially, and simply just evaluate the pitches based on merit.

Again, that looks good on paper.
In practice, far fewer women and non-binary people will even apply because they're so used to be excluded and ignored that many will thing "why bother?"
In practice, with so very, very many male submissions the odds of picking a woman are reduced.

Also, editors don't just want the same thing by the same people. It's like picking a hockey team. You don't just want six people who are all "the talent" and great at handling a puck. Because they can't take a hit or fill a goal. But you also don't just want six goons. You need a mix. It's not *really* discriminating against a talented hockey player to pick a goon over him, you're just choosing what is needed to round out the team.
(Or forming a D&D party. Five fighters or five rogues aren't going to do very well. You need that wizard and cleric to round things out.)

When compiling a book you want a nice mix of types of stories but also types of author. Different authors have a different voice. The publishers (and more likely the editor) has an idea of what they want and has decided more female authors are needed to round out the anthology. That they want to encourage more women into gaming.

Dualazi said:
Equality of opportunity is the goal we should reaching for, enforcing whatever the popular idea of 'equality of result' is counterproductive and is ultimately just a form of discrimination that society views more favorably.

But you can;'t get equality of opportunity by doing nothing. It doesn't happen automatically. The civil rights movement was fifty years ago and equality still hasn't happened.

I'm not one for binary "with us or against us" statements, but you either work towards equity or you're condoning inequality.

Is it "ultimately just a form of discrimination that society views more favorably"? YES! Absolutely.
I said so already. It's evil but it's the lesser of the two evils.

Just like not showing graphic violence on television at 8am is a form of censorship and a violation of free speech, but it's one we all accept. Just like you can't have sex in public is a violation of your pursuit of happiness and freedom of expression, but we're all okay with that being illegal. And just like preferred parking lot spaces discriminate against abled bodied people, potentially making them unable to park.
The world is full of compromises. Limitations on freedoms because the alternative is legal anarchy.

But when you protest against "discrimination" against males it's pretty much the same thing as protesting against disabled people having their own parking spots.

Jester David · Apr 8, 2017

Did anyone post to Green Ronin's response:
https://greenronin.com/lostcitadel/2017/04/04/the-lost-citadel-talent-search/

Greetings, fans of dark fantasy.

As some of you may have heard, yesterday Green Ronin announced that a new talent search will be going live in a couple weeks. Rather than tease a bit from the Lost Citadel Roleplaying project or its setting, as usual for this blog, I’d like to take this chance to talk a bit about that outreach effort.

Nicole (Lindroos, of GR) and I discussed the whys and wherefores of the concept at length before we decided to go ahead with it. We don’t enjoy the idea of exclusion, and we know that feeling excluded from things can hurt, but that is exactly in part why we are doing this talent search.

The tabletop gaming world has come a long way from its humble origins, and this includes the participation of people who identify as women. Nicole and I are proud to have been a part of that development, but we also know that there’s more that we and others can do. History shows us that women often feel apprehensive about trying to make their way in arenas that are traditionally male-dominated, even when the talent and willingness to contribute are there, and being proactive about including them is one of the best ways to address that concern.

And for clarity’s sake: Tabletop gaming is one of those largely male-dominated arenas.

As a concept, the Lost Citadel has been and will continue to be designed in an expressly women-inclusive way. One of the core team, Jaym Gates, is a woman, and half the contributors to the table of contents of the first anthology (Tales of the Lost Citadel) were women. The setting/property does not shy away from telling stories by women, about women, or for women, even as it endeavors to provide a context for telling stories that are gender-neutral. To us, that is genuine inclusivity, which is part of why non-binary-identifiying folks are welcome to submit to this talent search, too.

Both men and women were on that first anthology, and the same will be true of the LCRPG, but Nicole and I observed that if there was ever a situation in which it was clearly the right thing to do to reach out to women specifically, to let them know that there’s a place where their efforts and ideas aren’t just welcome but desired, that situation could involve the Lost Citadel.

Specific guidelines on submissions will follow in a separate announcement, but we thank everyone for their interest and for recognizing the positive effect that efforts like this can have.

Hussar · Apr 8, 2017

And, there is the somewhat more cynical take on all of this as well. It's marketing. It's a way to differentiate GR's product from the hundred other products that are on the shelves that, at the end of the day, aren't all that different. But, by doing this, they are separating their product from the pack.

Now, just because it might help their bottom line doesn't take away from their efforts. Of course, it could blow up in their faces and the crowd that feels excluded might damage sales. That's true. That's also the risk you always take in marketing anything.

Abstruse · Apr 8, 2017

Jester David said:
Did anyone post to Green Ronin's response:
https://greenronin.com/lostcitadel/2017/04/04/the-lost-citadel-talent-search/

That was the post that made me Part of the Problem ^_^;; The link in the original draft of the article linked to that post from Chris Pramas, but I decided to change it to the post from Nicole Lindroos about her experience at DICE and didn't double-check the byline and correct it. So I attributed the words of a woman to the male in the company. So the haphazard edits marked in the column are because Nicole herself pointed out my mistake to me on Facebook and I was in a rush to fix it since it'd already been up for about a day at that point. I was even kind of a jerk about it to her in a "pass the buck" way when I blamed Green Ronin's site for crediting Chris. It wasn't until I checked my original notes I realized where I'd messed up.

So I would like to once again apologize to Nicole Lindroos. I screwed up and I'm sorry.

Abstruse · Apr 8, 2017

Hussar said:
And, there is the somewhat more cynical take on all of this as well. It's marketing. It's a way to differentiate GR's product from the hundred other products that are on the shelves that, at the end of the day, aren't all that different. But, by doing this, they are separating their product from the pack.

Now, just because it might help their bottom line doesn't take away from their efforts. Of course, it could blow up in their faces and the crowd that feels excluded might damage sales. That's true. That's also the risk you always take in marketing anything.

Trust me, it's not just marketing. I've known Chris, Ari, and Jaym for a while and I've interacted with pretty much everyone involved with Lost Citadel at some point. Making gaming and publishing more inclusive is a big goal of everyone involved in general, not just for this specific project.

Mouseferatu · Apr 8, 2017

First, straight from Nicole Lindroos, and yes, linked with permission:

https://www.facebook.com/nikchick/posts/10158587982730500

Second, I, myself, am not an employee of Green Ronin, but I am co-creator of the Lost Citadel property. I 100% support everything CA and Nicole are doing with this.

Yes, there's an imbalance in the industry. Yes, this contest is a single step in the effort toward correcting that. No, there will not be a men-only equivalent; that very concept misses the entire point. (And yes, the creative team on both the anthology and the game is a solid mix of men and women. This talent search is to find someone to fill one seat on the RPG team.)

If people agree with the goals and/or means, great. Glad to hear it. If people don't care, fine. Buy the product or not, on its merits and your preferences.

People who are truly, deeply upset that Green Ronin would dare to reach out to under-represented demographics on the creative side of our industry? Well, look, as I said, I'm not an employee of GR. I'm not making an official statement on their behalf.

But I, and many others involved, believe what we believe. We do what we feel is right. Our beliefs are going to impact not just how we staff and create the property, but the property itself. If that turns you off, so be it.

Rygar · Apr 8, 2017

Jester David said:
That's a pretty big stretch. You're really focusing on the irrelevant and largely cosmetic parts of the analogy to discredit it.

Yes.
However, certain people applying for careers are societal given said advantage. They start with an advantage. While other start with a bias and outright disadvantage.

Again, that looks good on paper.
In practice, far fewer women and non-binary people will even apply because they're so used to be excluded and ignored that many will thing "why bother?"
In practice, with so very, very many male submissions the odds of picking a woman are reduced.

Also, editors don't just want the same thing by the same people. It's like picking a hockey team. You don't just want six people who are all "the talent" and great at handling a puck. Because they can't take a hit or fill a goal. But you also don't just want six goons. You need a mix. It's not *really* discriminating against a talented hockey player to pick a goon over him, you're just choosing what is needed to round out the team.
(Or forming a D&D party. Five fighters or five rogues aren't going to do very well. You need that wizard and cleric to round things out.)

When compiling a book you want a nice mix of types of stories but also types of author. Different authors have a different voice. The publishers (and more likely the editor) has an idea of what they want and has decided more female authors are needed to round out the anthology. That they want to encourage more women into gaming.

But you can;'t get equality of opportunity by doing nothing. It doesn't happen automatically. The civil rights movement was fifty years ago and equality still hasn't happened.

I'm not one for binary "with us or against us" statements, but you either work towards equity or you're condoning inequality.

Is it "ultimately just a form of discrimination that society views more favorably"? YES! Absolutely.
I said so already. It's evil but it's the lesser of the two evils.

Just like not showing graphic violence on television at 8am is a form of censorship and a violation of free speech, but it's one we all accept. Just like you can't have sex in public is a violation of your pursuit of happiness and freedom of expression, but we're all okay with that being illegal. And just like preferred parking lot spaces discriminate against abled bodied people, potentially making them unable to park.
The world is full of compromises. Limitations on freedoms because the alternative is legal anarchy.

But when you protest against "discrimination" against males it's pretty much the same thing as protesting against disabled people having their own parking spots.

Ok, I have to jump in at this point.

You really need to quit ignoring the very obvious fact that women were instrumental to birthing this industry. I find it *incredibly* offensive that you belittle the work of Margaret Weiss and Laura Hickman among others with your narrative that women have been barred from doing anything in this industry. Never mind all of the women working in the genre like Anne Mccafferty. Drop the political narrative and quit belittling the achievements of women.

Green Ronin is gone. They've just based their future on a political statement and in doing so, just tossed out the majority of their market. Anyone who is conservative is now gone, most males are gone, anyone who is deeply religious is now gone. For what? A meaningless political statement. Women were already key to the creation of the industry. There has never been a module whose cover included "Author is gay!" or "Author is transsexual!" on it, so not a single customer has ever been aware of the sexual orientation of the author and no customer ever will be.

So they fragmented their customer base to make a completely meaningless political statement and now they have to survive on a fraction of the sales they used to have. Considering that they're an extremely niche producer in a small market, they have perhaps months at best left to them.

Abstruse · Apr 8, 2017

Mouseferatu said:
First, straight from Nicole Lindroos, and yes, linked with permission:

https://www.facebook.com/nikchick/posts/10158587982730500

Second, I, myself, am not an employee of Green Ronin, but I am co-creator of the Lost Citadel property. I 100% support everything CA and Nicole are doing with this.

Yes, there's an imbalance in the industry. Yes, this contest is a single step in the effort toward correcting that. No, there will not be a men-only equivalent; that very concept misses the entire point. (And yes, the creative team on both the anthology and the game is a solid mix of men and women. This talent search is to find someone to fill one seat on the RPG team.)

If people agree with the goals and/or means, great. Glad to hear it. If people don't care, fine. Buy the product or not, on its merits and your preferences.

People who are truly, deeply upset that Green Ronin would dare to reach out to under-represented demographics on the creative side of our industry? Well, look, as I said, I'm not an employee of GR. I'm not making an official statement on their behalf.

But I, and many others involved, believe what we believe. We do what we feel is right. Our beliefs are going to impact not just how we staff and create the property, but the property itself. If that turns you off, so be it.

Well said.

And yes, I'm the person referred to in the post from Nicole. Yes, I'm in favor of the goal of more diversity in gaming and what Green Ronin is doing. Yes, my intentions were good and honest. Yes, I screwed up.

News Digest: Controversy Abounds! New Vampire Edition Details, Green Ronin's Talent Search, 7th Sea

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