Next Gen Games?

[chaochou]

There are a few things I'm looking forward to. Generally speaking, Apocalypse World and Burning Wheel are my benchmarks, which means Lumpley Games and BWHQ are the two publishers I watch most carefully. So I'm excited by Under Hollow Hills, which looks like it uses the AW moves and resolution, but has a more codified structure for the overall game. I'd not got into Torchbearer before and the second edition looks similar - like a tighter and more structured Burning Wheel.

Beyond those I'm intrigued by Wanderhome, which got decent backing on KS, and uses a system called No Dice, No Masters - which I'm not familiar with. The name kinda says what it isn't, so I'm interested to learn how it plays. I've seen the same system being used for other games (such as Orbital), so it's clearly having an influence in some circles.

 

[MGibster]

Predicting what's going to be firmly entrenched in gaming

Which non-D&D TTRPGs published within the past 5 or so years do you think represent the leaders of next generation games and publishers that will (or already are) influence future game design? I would like to leave out D&D of this discussion, because as the 800-pound gorilla industry leader, D&D will always exert an influence on future game design.

That's so difficult to guess. Fifteen years ago or so I would have told you Burning Wheel represented one of leaders of next generation games, at least based on what I was seeing in online forums, but now? I wasn't even sure you could buy a new physical copy until I checked (you can for a very reasonable $30), I rarely see anyone talk about it these days, and I've never seen it played in the wild. And, heck, when I first played Rise of the Runelords I never predicted that Paizo would end up producing a game that rivaled D&D.

I'll echo what some others have said. I was particularly impressed by Free League's Alien rpg. I hadn't planned on purchasing it because I didn't think Alien would provide me much game play, but I was so impressed by the rules I picked it up anyway. The rules are simple and they effectively adapted it to the original movies. (At least I think they have. Covid has prevented me from actually playing the game this year.)

But I don't know how well Free League games will be doing 5 years from now.

 

[hawkeyefan]

Predicting what's going to be firmly entrenched in gaming

That's so difficult to guess. Fifteen years ago or so I would have told you Burning Wheel represented one of leaders of next generation games, at least based on what I was seeing in online forums, but now? I wasn't even sure you could buy a new physical copy until I checked (you can for a very reasonable $30), I rarely see anyone talk about it these days, and I've never seen it played in the wild. And, heck, when I first played Rise of the Runelords I never predicted that Paizo would end up producing a game that rivaled D&D.

I'll echo what some others have said. I was particularly impressed by Free League's Alien rpg. I hadn't planned on purchasing it because I didn't think Alien would provide me much game play, but I was so impressed by the rules I picked it up anyway. The rules are simple and they effectively adapted it to the original movies. (At least I think they have. Covid has prevented me from actually playing the game this year.)

But I don't know how well Free League games will be doing 5 years from now.

That’s an interesting point.

What does a game need to achieve to be influential? Mainstream success like D&D? General notoriety of the community? Those things may play a part, but are they necessary?

Apocalypse World, for instance, is a game that has clearly been influential. Yet I don’t think I’d say it’s mainstream. And many people who are RPG enthusiasts remain unaware of it, despite it’s clear impact.

But I do think that in a lot of cases, such impact can only be gaged over time. Will Free League’s presence in and influence on the industry grow? Hard to say at this point, but it certainly seems possible.

 

[MGibster]

That’s an interesting point.

What does a game need to achieve to be influential? Mainstream success like D&D? General notoriety of the community? Those things may play a part, but are they necessary?

How do you measure success for a musician? If we used Beyoncé as our standard for what it means to be a successful musician, then we're left with many others who are by definition unsuccessful. She's not a good rubric to measure success with. D&D is our Beyoncé. No other game that has been produced in the history of RPGs has achieved penetration into the mainstream like D&D has. Vampire came pretty close in the 1990s though. I'm with team Aldarc when it comes to leaving D&D out of this discussion. Almost every game we can compare to D&D will show as lacking.

Apocalypse World, for instance, is a game that has clearly been influential. Yet I don’t think I’d say it’s mainstream. And many people who are RPG enthusiasts remain unaware of it, despite it’s clear impact.

That's fair. Flea, bassist for the Red Hot Chili Peppers, can no doubt name many bassist who influenced him that would be unknown to most fans. H.P. Lovecraft influenced author's including Neil Gaiman and Stephen King, but Lovecraft's audience during his lifetime was very small and even today it's a niche one.

I've only played one campaign of Apocalypse World and that was many years ago. Like those people who are fans of Flea, I'm not quiet sure if or how AW has influenced gaming in the last few years. I'm not sure what influence AW has had on games released since 2010. Like Burning Wheel, AW is one of those games that people talked a ton about when it was released but these days I don't see anyone talking about it.

But I do think that in a lot of cases, such impact can only be gaged over time. Will Free League’s presence in and influence on the industry grow? Hard to say at this point, but it certainly seems possible.

It's a solid design. I wish more games would create rules with a specific mind to reflect what they want to see in the setting.

 

[hawkeyefan]

How do you measure success for a musician? If we used Beyoncé as our standard for what it means to be a successful musician, then we're left with many others who are by definition unsuccessful. She's not a good rubric to measure success with. D&D is our Beyoncé. No other game that has been produced in the history of RPGs has achieved penetration into the mainstream like D&D has. Vampire came pretty close in the 1990s though. I'm with team Aldarc when it comes to leaving D&D out of this discussion. Almost every game we can compare to D&D will show as lacking.

Yeah, that’s my point. I don’t want to mistake success for influence.

It’s like that old joke about how Velvet Underground’s first album sold very few copies....but everyone who got one started their own band.

So beyond the notoriety and longevity of D&D, how else are we measuring influence?

 

[hawkeyefan]

That's fair. Flea, bassist for the Red Hot Chili Peppers, can no doubt name many bassist who influenced him that would be unknown to most fans. H.P. Lovecraft influenced author's including Neil Gaiman and Stephen King, but Lovecraft's audience during his lifetime was very small and even today it's a niche one.

I've only played one campaign of Apocalypse World and that was many years ago. Like those people who are fans of Flea, I'm not quiet sure if or how AW has influenced gaming in the last few years. I'm not sure what influence AW has had on games released since 2010. Like Burning Wheel, AW is one of those games that people talked a ton about when it was released but these days I don't see anyone talking about it.

Well, its system has been used as the basis for dozens of Powered By The Apocalypse games. People are still coming up with versions of the system to this day. I’d argue it’s one of the most influential games ever, especially if we discount the 800 pound gorilla.

And even beyond the direct impact of PbtA games as a category, many of the principles, design elements, and goals of play of Apocalypse World have been picked up by a lot of designers and implemented in new ways.

 

[hawkeyefan]

It's a solid design. I wish more games would create rules with a specific mind to reflect what they want to see in the setting.

I agree. It seems like a pretty strong foundation. And it seems easily tweaked to deliver specific experiences based on genre and so on.

Also, sorry for replying separately. Whatever recent change there was makes multi-quoting on a phone nearly impossible.

 

[MGibster]

And even beyond the direct impact of PbtA games as a category, many of the principles, design elements, and goals of play of Apocalypse World have been picked up by a lot of designers and implemented in new ways.

What games released in the last five years have been influenced by AW? And in what way were they influenced? I'm not being contentious here, I genuinely have no idea.

 

[Ovinomancer]

What games released in the last five years have been influenced by AW? And in what way were they influenced? I'm not being contentious here, I genuinely have no idea.

Blades in the Dark and the whole Forged in the Dark family, for one. Arguably the Year Zero Engine as well.

 

[pemerton]

What games released in the last five years have been influenced by AW? And in what way were they influenced? I'm not being contentious here, I genuinely have no idea.

To add to @Ovinomancer's reply: the No Dice, No Masters that @chaochou mentioned seems to draw pretty heavily from AW - at least, that's my conjecture based on the material presented so far as part of the Orbital Kickstarter.

There are a few things I'm looking forward to. Generally speaking, Apocalypse World and Burning Wheel are my benchmarks, which means Lumpley Games and BWHQ are the two publishers I watch most carefully.

I watch BWHQ more closely than Lumpley, but I agree with your judgement about benchmarking!

I'd not got into Torchbearer before and the second edition looks similar - like a tighter and more structured Burning Wheel.

Beyond those I'm intrigued by Wanderhome, which got decent backing on KS, and uses a system called No Dice, No Masters - which I'm not familiar with. The name kinda says what it isn't, so I'm interested to learn how it plays. I've seen the same system being used for other games (such as Orbital), so it's clearly having an influence in some circles.

I've backed both the Torchbearer and Orbital Kickstarters. I'm not sure I'll ever play Torchbearer, but I really admire Luke Crane's design instincts and want to see what he's come up with.

Orbital I hope to play with my group. It looks like it could be the first space-oriented sci-fi game since Traveller that I'm interested in. (Maybe I could also be interested in Alien, but I'm not sure I'm interested enough to spend on it and try and fit it into my group's schedule.)

To bring this back to @Aldarc's OP: I'm not sure that Torchbearer is a "next gen" game, except that - like BW and AW - it continues to model tight, thoughtful design.

I know there have been systems prior to No Dice, No Masters that don't use a GM as such and instead distribute scene-framing responsibilities. But I don't have experience with those systems, and so am looking forward to seeing exactly how Orbital handles it. I don't think GM-less is going to be "next gen", given the dominance in RPGing of the "GM as stortyteller" model, but I think Orbital - a bit like BitD, maybe - might continue to show what varied stuff can be done by adapting basic ideas from AW.