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<blockquote data-quote="Fenris-77" data-source="post: 7963031" data-attributes="member: 6993955">He thinks he's a good man? OF course he doesn't think of himself as evil, that's a chestnut as old as time when comes to talking about evil people - they never think of themselves like that. I'm not sure what that proves though. Let's say that Paladin started as LN. If you were DMing that game would you say he's playing that alignment? Or would you be more likely to say he's proved himself evil by his actions? Neither answer moves the needle much on the orc question.You are assuming that, as in real life, absolutes (or close) about good and evil don't exists in D&amp;D. That argument is, well, troublesome given that D&amp;D and fantasy fiction more widely do in fact use moral absolutes very commonly. The 'great evil that threatens the kingdom' is a thing. Fantasy fiction has monsters that are evil. It's that simple.The human commoner is a faulty example. Is your argument that orcs vary in alignment as much as humans? Humans that are probably the most variable creature, alignment wise, in all of D&amp;D? That comparison isn't carrying any water for you I'm afraid.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Fenris-77, post: 7963031, member: 6993955"] He thinks he's a good man? OF course he doesn't think of himself as evil, that's a chestnut as old as time when comes to talking about evil people - they never think of themselves like that. I'm not sure what that proves though. Let's say that Paladin started as LN. If you were DMing that game would you say he's playing that alignment? Or would you be more likely to say he's proved himself evil by his actions? Neither answer moves the needle much on the orc question. You are assuming that, as in real life, absolutes (or close) about good and evil don't exists in D&D. That argument is, well, troublesome given that D&D and fantasy fiction more widely do in fact use moral absolutes very commonly. The 'great evil that threatens the kingdom' is a thing. Fantasy fiction has monsters that are evil. It's that simple. The human commoner is a faulty example. Is your argument that orcs vary in alignment as much as humans? Humans that are probably the most variable creature, alignment wise, in all of D&D? That comparison isn't carrying any water for you I'm afraid. [/QUOTE]

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