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<blockquote data-quote="Oofta" data-source="post: 7964273" data-attributes="member: 6801845">Well, as always the disclaimer.&nbsp; There is no one true way.People keep saying that demons and devils are evil, but with orcs it's all relative.&nbsp; That's where I simply disagree.&nbsp; If there are sentient creatures that are inherently evil, drawing a line based on origin has limits. Any line we draw about completely fictional creatures is arbitrary.Orcs are a created race, created specifically to wage eternal war.&nbsp; Compare that to Drow.&nbsp; Drow have a different origin, they were elves at one point but some of the elves were social misfits.&nbsp; Those elves were kicked out and turned to Lollth because she was the only one that would accept them.&nbsp; So I can see an argument for Drow being evil because of culture more than orcs.But orcs vs demons or gnolls?&nbsp; I just don't see why putting orcs into a different category changes anything.&nbsp; If Gruumsh were a demon would it have mattered?&nbsp; I also admit I haven't paid much attention to D&amp;D's planes of existence in ... well ever.&nbsp; I don't use standard cosmology at all and never have.&nbsp; My planes are based on Norse mythology.&nbsp; But a quick read doesn't seem to support some of what you state (from a rules only perspective).&nbsp; You make statements like &quot;The Higher Planes, are the only realms, where Absolute Good can exist.&quot;&nbsp; Where does it say that?Orcs are not human and do not have to follow rules for humans.&nbsp; Their representation in D&amp;D is just as fictional as demons and angels I see no reason to apply a different logic based on the rules in the book.&nbsp; Therefore it is completely up to each group how they want to handle it.Saying that orcs are evil solely because of culture smacks of colonialist moral relativity.&nbsp; I simply don't want as part of my game's fictional narrative.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Oofta, post: 7964273, member: 6801845"] Well, as always the disclaimer. There is no one true way. People keep saying that demons and devils are evil, but with orcs it's all relative. That's where I simply disagree. If there are sentient creatures that are inherently evil, drawing a line based on origin has limits. Any line we draw about completely fictional creatures is arbitrary. Orcs are a created race, created specifically to wage eternal war. Compare that to Drow. Drow have a different origin, they were elves at one point but some of the elves were social misfits. Those elves were kicked out and turned to Lollth because she was the only one that would accept them. So I can see an argument for Drow being evil because of culture more than orcs. But orcs vs demons or gnolls? I just don't see why putting orcs into a different category changes anything. If Gruumsh were a demon would it have mattered? I also admit I haven't paid much attention to D&D's planes of existence in ... well ever. I don't use standard cosmology at all and never have. My planes are based on Norse mythology. But a quick read doesn't seem to support some of what you state (from a rules only perspective). You make statements like "The Higher Planes, are the only realms, where Absolute Good can exist." Where does it say that? Orcs are not human and do not have to follow rules for humans. Their representation in D&D is just as fictional as demons and angels I see no reason to apply a different logic based on the rules in the book. Therefore it is completely up to each group how they want to handle it. Saying that orcs are evil solely because of culture smacks of colonialist moral relativity. I simply don't want as part of my game's fictional narrative. [/QUOTE]

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