NKL.Sorcerer

Terath Ninir

Yog Sothoth loves you
Okay, those of us on Nutkinland (the sort-of sister board of ENWorld) have been working on an alt.sorcerer class. Now, before anyone goes on about how the sorcerer class is fine as it is, bear in mind that those who have worked on this so far do not agree. Our starting postulate is the official class is not good enough, so we're really not going to listen to arguments to the contrary. :)

This is a mostly complete list of class abilities. It does not yet have the details on how spontaneous spellcasting works (I got bored typing, and I haven't cut and pasted from the SRD yet). The Spells section is otherwise complete.

The biggest problem that readers have had so far is dropping familiars as an automatic class ability, and making it an optional feat. I think they make the sorcerer too much like a wizard, but lots of people like them.

Any and all comments are welcome, though constructive ones are most welcome. :D

If you want to see how we came up with this class, the original thread is here:
http://www.nutkinland.com/viewtopic.php?t=8811

NKL.Sorcerer

Hit Die: d6.

Class Skills
The sorcerer’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Speak Language (n/a), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
Skill Points at 1st level: (4+Int modifier) x4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4+Int modifier.

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the sorcerer.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Sorcerers are proficient with all simple weapons. They are not proficient with any type of armor or shield. Armor of any type interferes with a sorcerer’s arcane gestures, which can cause his spells with somatic components to fail.

Spells: The NKL.sorcerer can choose any spell off of the wizard, cleric, or druid list. A sorcerer’s spells are always arcane, even if they come from the cleric or druid list. If a spell is available at different levels on different lists, use the wizard level if there is one; if none, then the cleric level; or the druid level if it is exclusive to druids. The DM can decide whether the NKL.sorcerer has access to spells from books other than the Player’s Handbook.

To learn or cast a spell, a sorcerer must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10+ the spell level (Cha 10 for 0-level spells, Cha 11 for 1st level spells, and so forth). The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a sorcerer’s spell is 10+ the spell level + the sorcerer’s Charisma modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a sorcerer can cast only a certain number of spells of each level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table 3-16: The Sorcerer. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score (see Table 1-1: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells).

The NKL.sorcerer gains a limited selection of spells. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells (also called cantrips) and two 1st-level spells of your choice. Your character also gains bonus spells known for a high Charisma score, so a 1st level sorcerer will most likely have three 1st level spells. At each new sorcerer level, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table 3-17: Sorcerer Spells Known. (Don’t forget to add bonus spells for Charisma when your character learns spells of a new spell level). Note that you do not gain bonus spells known for temporary increases in Charisma. Spells and items that grant temporary bonuses increase the number of spells you can use per day, but not the number of spells you know.

Eschew Materials and Spell Thematics: A sorcerer gains these feats for free at 1st level. You do not have to use material components or foci, unless they have a cost greater than 1 gp. You also do not have to use divine foci, since your spells are arcane. You also pick a spell theme at 1st level that carries on to all of your spells as you advance in levels. See Tome & Blood for more information.

Swap spells: Every level after 1st, you can change one spell you know for any other spell of the same level. The spell has the same restrictions as any other spell you learn (wizard, cleric, or druid list; spell level taken in that order.)

Familiar: A sorcerer can summon a familiar any level after 1st. However, they have to use a feat slot to do so. The sorcerer can also only gain a familiar on a character level when he is gaining a class level of sorcerer.


Balancing Factors: The NKL.sorcerer does not automatically get a familiar, which is a decent if not spectacular ability. This balances out the two feats they gain at 1st level.

The class list is changed to make the sorcerer fit the flavor text of their description (as party leaders and diplomats). Knowledge Arcana and Spellcraft were dropped because sorcerers do not study magic. They do magic, but they don't know how it works, unless they figure it out on their own. So there is no good reason for them to have those skills -- they only had them because the other spellcasters had them.

One of the biggest problems with the current sorcerer is that you lose nothing and usually gain a lot if you multiclass. (Your familiar stops advancing, except in HD and hp, but at least half of all sorcerers don't care.) The NKL.sorcerer has things to lose, however, when it multiclasses, making them more balanced.

Sorcerers that multiclass lose the Swap Spells ability. They also face a class skill list that is unlikely to match theirs much, and probably only has 2 skill points/level. Most prestige classes (other than eldritch knight) also have a d4 HD, rather than d6. The sorcerer also will qualify for few divine prestige classes, since he uses arcane spells.
 

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Hmmm, this is quite a boost. First off, I think giving sorcerors absolute access to 3 spell lists is far more powerful than you make it sound. One of the bard's niches is that he can cast arcane healing spells, if a sorceror can do that too (at a lower level even) then why play a bard?

I think a better fix with the Eschew Materials, Spell Thematics, and Summon Familiar thing would be this:

Arcane Upbringing: The sorceror may choose any 2 of the following abilities at 1st level. These abilities may not be swapped out or changed after they are chosen.

-Summon Familiar
-Eschew Materials
-Spell Thematics
-Combat Casting
-Magical Aptitude (+2 Spellcraft and Use Magic Device)
-Persuasive (+2 Bluff and Intimidate)
-Negotiator (+2 Diplomacy and Sense Motive)
-Toughness

Following that change I would reduce the HD back to d4 (a tough sorceror can take Toughness as part of their upbringing) and reduce skill points to 2 per level (a skilled sorceror can take skill-bonus feats as part of their upbringing).

For Swap Spells I would make a change in-between yours and 3.5s: Every time a sorceror gains a new level of spells they may choose one known spell and swap it out for a spell of the same level. Thus it is the same frequency as the 3.5 version, but it applies to any spell known as the NKL version.

Seasong proposed an awesome mechanic that goes a long way towards making sorcerors equally viable with wizards. Instead of having a complicated "Spells Known" chart showing at which level a sorceror learns new spells (and what level those spells are) you simply state: A sorceror begins play with 6 known spells of 0 or 1st level. Every level a sorceror learns 2 new spells, but must be able to cast any spell they learn." Something along those lines, basically a sorceror ends up learning about the same number of spells/level, but can start with more 1st level spells, and end up with more high level spells (at the cost of fewer lower level spells).

Honestly I think the NKL version goes a little too far. Improving HD, class skill list, skills per level, tripling their spell list, and giving 2 bonus things at 1st level can have quite an effect on a class.

Technik
 

Hey Cyberzombie! I was watching the build over at Nutkinland with some interest :).
Cyberzombie said:
Now, before anyone goes on about how the sorcerer class is fine as it is, bear in mind that those who have worked on this so far do not agree.
The default assumption in the House Rules forum here is that nothing is fine as it is ;).

The biggest problem that readers have had so far is dropping familiars as an automatic class ability, and making it an optional feat. I think they make the sorcerer too much like a wizard, but lots of people like them.
So, some constructive comments...

The familiar is far more powerful than any feat. And eschew materials is a pretty weak feat - I'm not familiar with the Tome & Blood feat? I think the HD + 2 feats - familiar is reasonably balanced, I suppose (a toad familiar gives the wizard +1 hp/lvl, +1 Fort save, Alertness, and later, various espionage capabilities), but maybe a bit on the weak side.

PrCs will tend to cost 2 skill points and 1 hit point. Since most sorcerers got by just fine in 3.5 without those, this doesn't seem like a big deal to me, but at least it's something to lose, as opposed to nothing :).

Spell-selection-wise, I think it's fine, although you might want some limitations, since there are plenty of combinations that are fairly abusable.

Some other alt.sorcerer threads you could maybe use with this:

my alt.sorcerer
taking the blood lineage idea to its conclusion
more discussion of opening up the cleric and druid spell lists - some pretty good discussion, here :)
 

Oh, yay! I was beginning to wonder whether anyone was going to respond. Thank you thank you! :D

Technik4 said:
Hmmm, this is quite a boost.

It's quite a boost, yes, but those of us working on the class really think that the sorcerer is that bad.

Technik4 said:
First off, I think giving sorcerors absolute access to 3 spell lists is far more powerful than you make it sound. One of the bard's niches is that he can cast arcane healing spells, if a sorceror can do that too (at a lower level even) then why play a bard?

Well, I have never looked at 3e bards as anything except last-ditch healers. They just don't have enough spells per day to be a primary healer. Thus, I don't think that being able to cast healing spells is that much of a reason to play a bard.

Technik4 said:
I think a better fix with the Eschew Materials, Spell Thematics, and Summon Familiar thing would be this:

Arcane Upbringing: The sorceror may choose any 2 of the following abilities at 1st level. These abilities may not be swapped out or changed after they are chosen.

-Summon Familiar
-Eschew Materials
-Spell Thematics
-Combat Casting
-Magical Aptitude (+2 Spellcraft and Use Magic Device)
-Persuasive (+2 Bluff and Intimidate)
-Negotiator (+2 Diplomacy and Sense Motive)
-Toughness

Now that might be something to think about. I could see those as options that the player could choose. Eschew Materials and Spell Thematics would have to be one choice, and I'd have Summon Familiar count as both choices.

Technik4 said:
Following that change I would reduce the HD back to d4 (a tough sorceror can take Toughness as part of their upbringing) and reduce skill points to 2 per level (a skilled sorceror can take skill-bonus feats as part of their upbringing).

I am perfectly happy if you do that in your campaign. I, however, see them as two of the major deficiencies of the class. I can see why someone would want to keep the d4 HD, but the sorcerer skill points are just inadaquete. Well, at least once they get a decent skill list. :)

Technik4 said:
For Swap Spells I would make a change in-between yours and 3.5s: Every time a sorceror gains a new level of spells they may choose one known spell and swap it out for a spell of the same level. Thus it is the same frequency as the 3.5 version, but it applies to any spell known as the NKL version.

I can see the argument for that one. Since the NKL version gets bonus spells known, I might just go with that.

Technik4 said:
Seasong proposed an awesome mechanic that goes a long way towards making sorcerors equally viable with wizards. Instead of having a complicated "Spells Known" chart showing at which level a sorceror learns new spells (and what level those spells are) you simply state: A sorceror begins play with 6 known spells of 0 or 1st level. Every level a sorceror learns 2 new spells, but must be able to cast any spell they learn." Something along those lines, basically a sorceror ends up learning about the same number of spells/level, but can start with more 1st level spells, and end up with more high level spells (at the cost of fewer lower level spells).

Now that is something to consider. I'd have to go through the chart and actually look it over before I endorsed it, but that does sound pretty good. It also fits in with the theme of simple, easy to execute changes. I thank you for all your kind advice, but especially mentioning this tidbit. :D

Technik4 said:
Honestly I think the NKL version goes a little too far. Improving HD, class skill list, skills per level, tripling their spell list, and giving 2 bonus things at 1st level can have quite an effect on a class.

Technik

Well, I feel that the class really does need that much, or at least something close to it. At every odd level, the sorcerer is very inferior to the specialist wizards. Even levels are better, but not by a whole lot. If there weren't any specialist wizards, I wouldn't propose nearly so many changes.
 
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Re: Re: NKL.Sorcerer

seasong said:
Hey Cyberzombie! I was watching the build over at Nutkinland with some interest :).

Well, you should have said something there! Everyone is welcome. :)

seasong said:
The default assumption in the House Rules forum here is that nothing is fine as it is ;).

I like that assumption. :)

seasong said:
So, some constructive comments...

The familiar is far more powerful than any feat. And eschew materials is a pretty weak feat - I'm not familiar with the Tome & Blood feat? I think the HD + 2 feats - familiar is reasonably balanced, I suppose (a toad familiar gives the wizard +1 hp/lvl, +1 Fort save, Alertness, and later, various espionage capabilities), but maybe a bit on the weak side.

Well, that's one of the reasons I cut the familiar. It is more powerful than any feat (or those two feats). But it does help keep the class from being bloated. And it makes it less of a wizard clone.

seasong said:
PrCs will tend to cost 2 skill points and 1 hit point. Since most sorcerers got by just fine in 3.5 without those, this doesn't seem like a big deal to me, but at least it's something to lose, as opposed to nothing :).

I think most sorcerers limp along, but I respect your opinion. :)

seasong said:
Spell-selection-wise, I think it's fine, although you might want some limitations, since there are plenty of combinations that are fairly abusable.

Unless something became very obvious, it would go against the whole spirit of the beast. We want it short and sweet.

seasong said:
Some other alt.sorcerer threads you could maybe use with this:

my alt.sorcerer
taking the blood lineage idea to its conclusion
more discussion of opening up the cleric and druid spell lists - some pretty good discussion, here :)

Thanks. I'll take a look!
 
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Hmm. Interesting alt.sorcerer, Seasong. The thing I find funny is that yours is even more powerful than the NKL one in a lot of ways. Less powerful in others. I think the differences are largely ones of flavour. I think the voice abilities bring it a little too close to the bard, as does the armour.

I do like, however, how close our independantly constructed ideas ended up. They're definitely close cousins. :)

Your second link doesn't work, I'm afraid. It leads to an unrelated thread.

Looking at the third link, I don't really see any problem with including, say, Commune. The sorcerer could simply be contacting something more appropriate -- his ancestors, a demon, an angel, whatever. Miracle: well, I don't know what 3.5 miracle is like yet, and I can't look it up right now. But the ancestors/demon/angel/whatever could exercise the same veto power as a god could.
 
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Cyberzombie said:
Hmm. Interesting alt.sorcerer, Seasong. The thing I find funny is that yours is even more powerful than the NKL one in a lot of ways. Less powerful in others. I think the differences are largely ones of flavour. I think the voice abilities bring it a little too close to the bard, as does the armour.
I wrote it at least partially with the 3.5 bard in mind, who is more of an illusionist; and with the foreknowledge that I was planning to give the bard a bunch of new Song abilities to choose from, instead of static "gain X at Y level" Songs.

So, at least in my game, they are reasonably differentiated :).

As for the spell mechanic, bards and sorcerers have always been pretty close to identical in spell mechanic, and bards now use the Voice mechanic in my game also :). The spell lists, however, provide plenty of difference between the two.

I do like, however, how close our independantly constructed ideas ended up. They're definitely close cousins. :)
HD, skills, no familiar, and "cost something" at the higher levels :). That's the real reason I didn't want to get into the Nutkinland build - I didn't want to just recreate mine, and you were trying for simple/, which I'm not great at ;).

-seasong
 

Re: Re: Re: NKL.Sorcerer

Cyberzombie said:
Well, you should have said something there! Everyone is welcome. :)
Thanks :). And I do occasionally post there, but I'm mostly a long-term lurker.

Well, that's one of the reasons I cut the familiar. It is more powerful than any feat (or those two feats). But it does help keep the class from being bloated. And it makes it less of a wizard clone.
Oh, I wasn't saying you should keep the familiar :). I just wasn't sure that the sorcerer was being adequately compensated. +1 hp, +2 skill points, and some really weak feats just doesn't seem to quite compare, although it does have the advantage of making PrCs more of a "maybe" than a "well, duh".

Except for Archmage. Archmage with this version of sorcerer would rule even harder than Archmage with the old version of sorcerer.

Unless something became very obvious, it would go against the whole spirit of the beast. We want it short and sweet.
Okay, understandable.
 

CZ I like Technik4's idea for abilities chosen at 1st level, it'll give the Scor. a boost and let each player choose the direction/ flavor of her PC.

I still say that Cure and some divine based spells shouldn't be in the list of scor. spells as they distract from the Cleric( as the Bard does), but I'm old and hardheaded :).
 

A sorcerer with cure light wounds could be a healing machine gun... except that magic missile is so much more likely to win a fight for you.

It boils down to which is more likely to win a fight: recovering 15 hp so that your opponent can dish it out again next round, or dishing out 18 hp to your opponent? Clerics have the advantage of being able to scale their healing over various spell levels without giving up their flexibility - for a sorcerer to do the same, he would have to give up an offensive spell at each spell level, and while the cleric gets all of his spell list, the sorcerer has a very limited palette of options.

In other words, a cleric can heal as a last ditch thing, and he can do it well. A sorc has to devote a significant portion of his flexibility to healing to achieve the same thing.
 

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