No Homosexuality in my Campaign?

Desdichado · Dec 15, 2004

barsoomcore said:
But if your players don't like playing certain kinds of games, you shouldn't be surprised if they, um, don't like playing those kinds of games.

That should end up in someone's sig. But, no, mine's full.

Planesdragon · Dec 15, 2004

Vraille Darkfang said:
So, my question is: Given my statements above, how could I introduce homosexuality into my game world should the need arrive, without making it seem like I just “threw it in?”

Homosexuality (as in, the attraction to the same gender, not the ability to feel pleaseure from homosexual acts) is a latent adaptation in your races, put there by their creators to increase stability in populations given a dramatic slant away from 50/50 male/female proportions due to high-casualty battles.

A small, dedicated battle force (either legendary or contemporary) managed to activate this latent adaptation, and used it to turn an otherwise fracticious group into a highly dedicated fighting force, where each soldier fights for the unit as other soldiers only fight for their mates. These ascetic soldiers are divided by gender, and renowed by their neighbors as exceedingly fierce fighters.

-or if you want to be more extreme-

Homosexualiy is only the revelation that gender in all mortal races is a temporary adaptation. As souls reincarnate they often take on differing genders. Once mortals learn to remember their past loves, it's only a matter of time until an especially devoted couple finds themselves on the same side of the gender fence.

This could be an ancient but little-known story, or it could be a PC or NPC in the modern-day.

fusangite · Dec 15, 2004

Oryan77 said:
Maybe it's just me, but I don't see how you can base it on "efficiency" without making it a "moral" topic.

Can you clarify what you mean here? Are you saying all discussions of efficiency have a moral component? Or are you saying that all discussions of homosexuality have a moral component? Or something I have completely missed?

Your examples cover VERY few factors in the overall scheme of how straight/gay couples functions in society. If you limit capitalism to those few "advantages" a gay couple has, of course it might seem like it's more efficient.

Yes. But a pretty small proportion of social relations can be represented in economic terms. There is even a word in the science of economics for things the system cannot represent: externalities. One cannot include externalities when making efficiency arguments whereas they are the bread and butter of morality arguments.

I understand you're viewpoint on the matter though, and I won't push this into a debate.

You can if you want. I love debates.

From my perspective, you danced around the fact to being offensive. But this is probably just a matter of comprehending comments different ways.

Would it help if I said that straight couples are more efficient than any other currently legal family unit at producing kids?

Oryan77 · Dec 15, 2004

You can if you want. I love debates.

Heh, I'm all for debating too. But...

1. We can't hijack this thread anymore than we have or we'll be sent to our rooms without supper.

2. Debates never do anything but strengthen each others point of view. I've been in hundreds of debates, and the outcome is always the same. Although they do help you to learn new things sometimes and make you more intelligent.

3. Debates are usually more insulting than anything.

4. Unfortunately, I'm not a full blown member here. So I can't send a PM or check a members email address. I just realized I couldn't even PM the moderator

5. I'd rather talk about D&D

Sorry, I just felt I should respond to this and I don't have access to PM fusangite

No more off topic from me

Agback · Dec 15, 2004

Vraille Darkfang said:
4. All other sentient races are created by the perfect gods to do 2 things

a. Be soldiers
b. Make more soldiers

Given that I’ve decided most races were created by perfect beings to be basically self-replicating engines of war, I don’t see homosexuality as an innate character of various races (except weird races that could reproduce asexually in the first place).

I don't see your problem, since gay men make perfectly good, in fact excellent, soldiers. Consider for example King Richard I of England. The Spartans. The Sacred Band of Thebes. There seems from anthropology to be a link between warrior societies and homosexual or bisexual behaviour--perhaps raising boys to idealise military virtues and examples at the expense of domestic ones increases their regard for men at the expense of their regard for women. And one straight or bisexual man can readily inseminate a large number of women. It is also the case that lesbians can and do make excellent mothers.

It is perfectly plausible that one of your creators could have made a race consisting of 45% gay men (soldiers, perfectly happy with barracks life), 5% straight men (drones to father the next generation), and 50% bisexual women (farmers and mothers).

If sexual orientation is partly genetic in your world, and if that race long ago interbred with the others, you might end up with any proportion of homosexuality you wish to have.

Torm · Dec 15, 2004

The way I see it, you have two routes:

1. Homosexuality has arisen strictly as a result of free-will.

or

2. Homosexuality was a built in feature the gods (or some of them) put in their creations as a Positive Population Check - if the population rises to the point where it strains the resources available, (amongst other things) the incidence of homosexuality just naturally goes up, to help check the population and keep them from becoming divisive and combative with their own number over those resources.

It has been suggested that #2 above is demonstrably true in the real world and real history, but I will leave the readers of this post to their own conclusions - It sounds possible, but certainly nothing to go around carving into stone tablets.

P.S. I understand you may want a campaign mechanics reason for gayness, and that's cool, but I agree with the posters who have suggested not making it an in-game issue. Leave it a mystery to players, if it occurs, like why we park in driveways and drive on parkways....

Voodoo · Dec 16, 2004

If you want a reason for members of the races to be homosexual then the most likely one to me, given your creation myth, is that some of the gods were. No doubt all the races were granted aspects of thier divine creator, be it strength, wisdom or really sharp teeth. Thus, given that there is no reason for there not to be gay, bisexual or asexual gods, then they could have created their children with these aspects.

If you want to include homosexuality in your campaign world then you might think about deciding on a few gay relationships among major NPC's. It may never come to being important to the campaign or even known to the players, but if its decided now then if it does become more relevant its more likely that it will seem part of the setting and not applied at the last minuite.

But also you could have a gay couple run the next tavern the players stay in. Again the players will most likely never notice that there happens to be two male patrons.

One last suggestion for including it in you game world again looks to there being gay gods. It would be a good reason for why two gods are such good allies, even perhaps it is common for there respective clergy to marry each other. Or perhaps two of the gods used to be in a homosexual relationship and then fell out, one of them may have changed there sex and sexuality out of spite.

Despite being gay myself I have never played a gay character, but I believe this I because when I roleplay I like indulge in escapism and play characters with traits that I don't have.

Empyreus · Dec 16, 2004

A couple more thoughts...I studied these cultures in college as part of my anthro of gender program. If you're looking more for institutionalized homosexuality (ie same sex relationships as an integral part of the culture itself, as opposed to having a "hetero" society that has gay members, like-i'd argue at least-the one we live in today), check out the practices of some tribes of Papua New Guinea and America.

Papua New Guinea highlands: To become a man, a boy must literally ingest the essence of his male elders. I'll leave it at that and point you to an article that says it much more eloquently than i ever could:

http://www.gettingit.com/article/56

America: I copied this from http://tperkins.com/spiritual/two_spirit_people.html (there's a lot more where this came from):

"Some native cultures described people who have some degree of homosexuality as "Two-Spirit People." People who have both the spirit of a male and female combined in one body. In these cultures the two-spirited person was very important and very honored. They are looked at as a messenger from Spirit, the wise ones, the seers of things unseen. Their gift of having two spirits allowed them to see, feel and understand things that others could not. They were healers, the medicine men/women, the keepers of wisdom and of spiritual understandings.

"Many native cultures recognized that every person comes to earth with a mission and special gifts. Tribes would often perform ceremonies to discern what these gifts were so they could assist the child in uncovering their special talents and understand their purpose. Two-spirit people were very special to the tribe, they were the spiritual foundation and the center for health and survival of the tribe. Two-spirited children were trained in all aspects of the culture rather than just the male or female role. They were also taught the medicine ways and the ways of spirit. All the wisdom of the tribe was passed down to the two-spirit person. They were essential to the survival of their tribe and its culture."