No Magic CRs

[Pinotage]

I'm looking at having my PCs face up against NPCs who have no access to magic in any form. I was hoping to get some suggestions on how to modify the CRs of said NPCs against the PCs who will have access to magic as they normally do.

So, for example, given 4 10th level PCs, what level of fighter/barbarian/rogue etc. would be an appropriate challenge for them given that the NPC in question will have no magical items, only masterwork weapons and armor.

Thanks

Pinotage

 

[WayneLigon]

As far as I'm aware, 'stuff' never modifies CR. You can modify the XP they get if you feel it was less than a fair challenge, either way, though.

 

[Thanee]

But it should... as the stuff makes up quite some of their fighting prowess.

At that level, I'd try +2 levels.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Li Shenron]

It's hard to say... what was the equipment value for 10th level NPCs? IIRC for PCs is around 30000gp? I guess it's less for NPCs, but maybe it's still enough to assume things like a +2 weapon and a +2 armor for all the combat types, or a +4 stat item and a couple of protective items to the casters.

I'd say to keep the same CR to use +1 or +2 class levels.

OTOH, if that is true, that a character without equipment is -2 CR (not counting when CR is already 2 or less), paired with the rules that doubling the number of creatures gives +2 CR for the whole group, it would mean a character is worth only half himself when stripped of equipment, which is somewhat sad... :\

 

[Thanee]

But also somewhat true, or not?

Bye
Thanee

 

[Pinotage]

At lower levels it shouldn't make much of a difference. A 1st level Fighter NPC with 900 gp kit is not really going to have magic anyway. But at 10th or higher level when the equipment value is I think 12000 gp plus, it starts to make a difference. Of course, you could give them adamantine weapons and armor which I suppose would even out the difference, but at even higher levels lack of magic start to hurt. 15th level the gp value is something close to 60000 gp. Even adamantine is not going to help much there.

Pinotage

 

[Li Shenron]

But also somewhat true, or not?

I don't know, somewhat yes... but there's still the fact that twice as many creatures get twice as many actions in a round.

 

[devilish]

We had a discussion here about it :
http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=107672

According to Upper_Krust's rules, a player character without
equipment is .8 times level = CR, an npc character is .875 X Level.
I think that supports Thanee's -2 for a 10th level party and supports Pinotage that it's minor at lower levels.

 

[Pinotage]

That's helpful, thanks! I've never understood Upper Krust's system even after trying to read it several times.

I imagine given that NPCs will have only non-magical equipment, that 0.875 could be pushed up to 0.9 or something similar? What bothers me is that it's linear, while I would expect the change would be non-linear with increasing levels. Treasure increases are non-linear, so should their effect on CR be as well?

Pinotage

 

[devilish]

I imagine given that NPCs will have only non-magical equipment, that 0.875 could be pushed up to 0.9 or something similar? What bothers me is that it's linear, while I would expect the change would be non-linear with increasing levels. Treasure increases are non-linear, so should their effect on CR be as well?

Perhaps because it's almost all magic items after 1st level, that are
commensurate with party levels. What U_K assumes is that equipment is:
PC: Level ^ 3 * 100gp
NPC: Level ^ 3 * 25gp

So, from the examples:
10th level rogue with appropriate equipment(100,000gp) = CR 10
10th level rogue with nothing = CR 8
10th level rogue with NPC equipment (25,000gp) = CR 9.25 (I think the 9.125 is a typo)
10th level rogue with 20th level equipment = CR 12

I think if the NPC has only 1st level equipment, then it's
(10 levels of no equip) + 1 level of equipment
(10*.875) +.125 = CR 8.875

.....which actually does work out close to .9 ... you're right.