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No More 15-Minute Adventuring Day: Campsites


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Technically, you don't need a real deadline or definite pressure to keep going -- you only need to worry or presume that there is one, enough to spur you to action as long as possible.
But is ingame, fictional pressure enough in general? (It may be enough for some particular players, eg [MENTION=19675]Dannyalcatraz[/MENTION].)

Is the typical GM really going to bring everything to a climax (anti-climax) without the protagonists - that is, the PCs - there?

In a situation in which the players are aware of this metagame consideration, some other (non-fictional) incentive not to rest can be helpful. "Bragging rights" for keeping going can be one such incentive. Fictional consequences that the players know the GM will bring to bear, and which take the fiction in a direction the players don't want it to go (eg their PCs all end up looking like cowards) can be another source of incentive. Mechanical considerations like 4e's milestone rules can be another source of incentive (or, at least, of mitigation of disincentives).
 

How many battles do most characters in fantasy stories really have in a day? I'm hard pressed to remember many fantasy characters who engage in more than 3 battles in a day. When Frodo fought Shelob, it was his first and last battle of the day, wasn't it?

Sticking with LotR, how many battles could Angel Summoner...errr...Gandalf have handled solo? How many times did Gandalf nova & nap? How often did he husband his resources until they were REALLY needed? (How long did his magical energy take to recharge?)

Did the party fight the goblins & cave trolls and then take a break, or did they keep going? Immediately after, did they stand their ground and get killed by a Balrog?

After Gandalf was temporarily killed, did the party stop, regroup and go on, or did they go back to town for a new wizard because they didn't have anymore casters?

How many times did the party stop because Frodo was tired instead of dragging him bodily along?

Certainly, it is possible for adventurers in fiction AND games to be "one & done", but that's not what the 15 minute workday is. The 15 minute workday is an established pattern and preference for using resources quickly and then resting...often while still quite capable of adventuring.
 
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But is ingame, fictional pressure enough in general? (It may be enough for some particular players, eg @Dannyalcatraz .)
It is for me, but it depends how predictable the metagame aspect is. The more freeform the encounter design (or the DM's ability or inclination to tweak it on the fly), the easier it is to pretend that the metagame is not there.

Is the typical GM really going to bring everything to a climax (anti-climax) without the protagonists - that is, the PCs - there?
I've read many adventures where there are alternative endings. I've also read adventure where if the PCs screw up, there is a bad ending (usually a fictional one, like the city is destroyed, which would me feel bad and regret that the party was too quick to rest, even if it has no metagame effect other than failing to complete the last half the adventure).

In a situation in which the players are aware of this metagame consideration, some other (non-fictional) incentive not to rest can be helpful.
Sure, but as long as the metagame consideration is overtly the most important reason, then for me, it feels like a a zero sum game.
 

If we're talking realism, it takes at least 15 years for a new crop of orcs grow back.

I have to call this assertion "Dead Wrong". This assumes that orcs don't mature until 15 (when we have seen plenty of 14-year-old humans heading to adventure). It also assumes that there are no young orcs in the area.

The old Caves of Chaos had replacement rates written into their description, IIRC, and it wasn't "15 years".

But is ingame, fictional pressure enough in general? (It may be enough for some particular players, eg [MENTION=19675]Dannyalcatraz[/MENTION].)

Is the typical GM really going to bring everything to a climax (anti-climax) without the protagonists - that is, the PCs - there?

Holy storytelling, Batman!

YES, if the pcs know that the bad guys are going to complete their evil plan in three hours and the party goes to take an extended rest, the dm should let the evil plan finish. Seriously, it sounds like the presumption here is "Nothing happens without the pcs involved!"

That's not how it works in my campaign, or in any of the better games I've played in. The bad guys keep being bad whether you're sticking your fingers in their pie or not. And if you miss it and the bad guys bring their plot to completion? Hurray, the world just got more interesting!

The idea that nothing happens if the pcs aren't involved is one of the best suggestions I've heard for pushing the idea of D&D as a tabletop skirmish game instead of an rpg.
 

15-minute adventuring day is merely the label. What is really at stake is, "are the players attempting rest more often than the preferred style of the current group would indicate, out of a desire for more power concentrated at the sticking points and/or insufficient challenge?"

How about this as a related tangent? As a general design principle, when a DM makes his adventure, out of "encounters" or "monsters" or "rooms" or "areas" or whatever, this should be something that the DM uses as a tool--but not transparent in the result to the players.

So say we have a starting party adventure, a typical cave complex heavily populated with kobolds or goblins, a few traps, an oddball monster or three, a witch doctor, and some nasty monster more suitable for characters a couple of levels higher. (We'll assume we have decent background, situation, proto-plot, etc. to make this non-generic and suitable for the gaming style, but it isn't relevant to the point.)

Now, there are some interesting locations in this complex. And if things go more or less as expected, some of the bigger fights will happen in these spots, at least part of the time. You might get some "running" fights that go through such areas. And we'll also assume that there is far more in here than a starting party can handle--certainly not without some rest. They are expected to retreat and/or hole up two to three times before clearing out the whole complex--or perhaps hit it hard a time or two, then go do something else before they tangle with the tougher parts (i.e. gain another level elsewhere).

So far, whether you have a 15-minute adventuring day will depend upon the DM making this place come alive (i.e. not allowing camping in a heavily traveled hall) or the players avoiding such a style (whether out of native caution, heroic characterization, or simply wanting to get on with it). But the main point is to kill most of those monsters and take their treasures, thus gaining power. So the characters are going to attempt to divide and conquer as much as possible within the confines of their preferred style--including extra resting for repeat use of big guns. And the DM will attempt to thwart that, again within the confines of the preferred style.

Certainly, if the complex is static, and the "encounter" design is transparent, it will take an act of will even for players who want to "get on with it" to risk their characters when a rest is almost assuredly safe. OTOH, if the place has monsters moving around and reacting to what is happening, then safety is tenuous. At that point, it only becomes necessary for the DM to create a perception of risk/reward being uncertain, to encourage the players to stick to the preferred style.

So if I'm correct in all that, it seems to me that the edition-spanning answer (i.e. that would work, not what is encouraged or in the RAW of all editions) would be to go to an all quest and/or treasure-based XP system. No XP for monsters whatsoever. Then a DM always has an incentive to include more monsters than are necessary, but spread them out. If the PCs camp in the main hall, they get several groups of weaker monsters at once, gaining nothing in the process. OTOH, one would assume that giving the numbers of monsters, this will happen at least a few times even with clever play, thus producing the exciting battles.

After all, it is true that the LotR characters rarely fought 4+ encounters in a day. But when they went through Moria, they weren't looking to fight, and had a lot more than 4+ opportunities a day for a fight. :lol:
 

After Gandalf was temporarily killed, did the party stop, regroup and go on, or Sid they go back to town for a new wizard because they didn't have anymore casters?

:lol: [ IF LOTR WERE D&D....]


" Fly you fools!"..............



Aragorn: " Ok that sucked. Lets head back to Bree and track down Radigast."

Legolas: " Hey genius, the bridge is out and we're on the wrong side."

Boromir: " So we go overland. We need a wizard to see this through."

Gimli: " Overland? We tried that remember, it didn't go so well. "

Pippen: " Guys, a balrog just ate the highest level wizard we are likely to find. What good is a lower level one gonna do us anyway?"

Aragorn: " Good point. Screw it- on to Lothlorien."
 


The first question that really needs to be answered by the gaming group is, "What kind of game are we playing?" The answer to the 15-minute day really stems from that.

For example, if the game is a pure dungeon romp where the players are out to kill them and take their stuff and grow in power, then I'd look at adding some metagame concept rest resource. I'd make the campsite a purchasable resource (everything you need to rest in a dungeon for one low price!) that when used allows the players to rest and regain their powers. It would have a weight and count against encumbrance, so you couldn't just load up on them. You could take it one step further and make the campsites level based, so you'd need to buy a more expensive version to get level X powers back. I could see an interesting discussion on should we drop the campsite to carry the chest of gold instead? Or cheap skates thinking they can get by just fine without recovering level 3 spells during the dungeon run.

If the game is very story oriented, then perhaps divide the powers into at-will, scene, and act. This works pretty well out of the box with 4th edition, but you could probably house rule something for 3.5/Pathfinder. Maybe make the act power automatically maximized or empowered as an incentive.
 

I already use the 'at will/scene/act' methodology, often granting an extended rest as they move from one act to another, even in the same adventuring day.

I have also ran 1 encounter days, all the way up to 14 in one day.

I think the key to the 15-minute problem is the perception on the players side that they have to nova in order to survive. This was a huge problem in higher level 3x with the save or die scenarios and some of that mind set is retained at the 4e table.

Part of that is enhanced by encounter design that was amped up to match the damage output of a party that does nova... creating a vicious cycle.

IMHO, the only way to break it is to break the 4th wall and talk with the group about encounter design. Something along the lines of 'look guys, my plan is to hit the very thin line between boring {too easy} and annoying {TPK}. This means some sessions we will go through multiple encounters as the story is better if you end up at the end with less resources. If you want to do extended rests you have more resources and I have to do one of a couple things. First, make that final battle way stronger and I might accidently TPK everyone. Second, the BBEG might just run away to cause problems elsewhere. Third, they might get reinforcements that make everything else that much harder. Does anyone have any problem with backing off on the 'go nova' approach if I tell you when you are at your last encounter of the day?"

The game where there were 14 encounters in a day worked that way. I started with 'this is going to be a very long day and the end is a really nasty fight' There was alot of groaning as the day ground on and the team had to shepard thier resources wisely. They walked into the final battle wrung out, down to a handful of healing surges and only a couple dailies... which made the victory that much more exciting and proved that the PCs were indeed Heroes.. there was no-one else that could have survived that long!


[MENTION=40166]prosfilaes[/MENTION]... there are other ways to repopulate the dungeons besides growing babies. Raise undead, unleash the black ooze garbage disposal unit, set up traps, cause a cave-in, hunting parties return, an aggressive neighbor {who doesn't like the Orcs or the PCs} start taking over the dungeon starting at the entrance....

The idea is that things happen off-screen, developing a more believable world and enforcing thinking in terms of the game world instead of the game mechanics.

YMMV
 

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