No more Malcanthet?

[kiltmonkey]

According to WotC, the erinyes and succubi are merging into one creature: the succubus (which will be a devil and not a demon).

So the question is: will Malcanthet, the Queen of the Succubi, exist in the 4th Edition?

 

[Wolfspider]

No reason why she couldn't be some kind of unique devil, I suppose.

 

[Lurks-no-More]

No reason why she couldn't be some kind of unique devil, I suppose.

None that I can think of, really. WotC is trying to make devils more humanoid overall, and less craggy gargoyles, chittering giant insects, or scorpion-tailed starvelings. Malcanthet would fit in nicely in the revamped Hellish Hierarchy.

 

[Silverblade The Ench]

The changes to fiends, and basically removing the Great Wheel of Planes, in 4th ed, sounds deeply obnoxious and dumb

having devils = humanoid...WHY?! Forces of evil can be any dern thing. This is one of the big "flavour" changes that strikes me as patently thick, to put it bluntly.
Removing the Law/Chaos ethics is all part of this mess. Sigh.

Lessening alignment in regards ot PCs, ok I can see that, but NOT with many planar creatures. WOTC just took a great big dump in (A)D&D's collective mythology, and that is incredibly annoying and dumb.

Change a mechanic, ok, fine, npb! But change major parts of the entire game history/plot character for a retcon? Hairy male dwarven spheres, says I!


Wrecking the back story of chunks of Planescape etc, like messing with Malcanthet, whom WOTC only recently did a lot of work on! (the fiends books), just smacks of contempt for the game's history.

 

[Shroomy]

Malcanthet is only 3-4 years old. Her first mention was in Dungeon 112 from 2004.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

The changes to fiends, and basically removing the Great Wheel of Planes, in 4th ed, sounds deeply obnoxious and dumb

I on the contrary really like the changes.
In 3E, every demon seems to have some kind devil equivalent and vice versa. The only difference between demons and devils seems to be that demons are labeled chaotic, and devils are labeled lawful. But what's the real difference between them? They are both after souls of mortals, and they hate each other. Their alignment difference don't seem to matter in the actual structure - their are Arch Fiends and Demon Princes ruling over the lesser devils/demons.

In 4E, the difference between Devils and Demos seems very obvious.
Devils tempt mortals to get their souls. They use trickery over brute force and manipulate other beings. Sounds like something a lawful evil creature should do, because it's about long-termin planning and fine-tuning your devil contracts so that they do what you want.
Demons want to destroy the world. No need for plans or structure, as long as you get to kill someone or destroy something. In fact, any kind of plan or structure revealed to a demon is a target.

Demons automatiaclly become mortal enemies of devils. Devils want souls, and a destroyed world doesn't give it to them. Devils devise complex plans to get their goal, but a Demon loves to wreck with these things.

 

[Lurks-no-More]

The changes to fiends, and basically removing the Great Wheel of Planes, in 4th ed, sounds deeply obnoxious and dumb

having devils = humanoid...WHY?! Forces of evil can be any dern thing. This is one of the big "flavour" changes that strikes me as patently thick, to put it bluntly.

You have to look at the change in context, however. How would you differentiate the 3e and previous devils from demons? The two sides are way too similar for creatures which should be very different - compare balors and pit fiends, or erinyes and succubae!

Now, 4e is going with more-or-less humaniform devils as a race of deicidal, fallen angels whose grand goal seems to be to break out of their hell-prison, and who use corruption, manipulation and seduction to advance this goal.

The 4e demons, in turn, seem to be originally elemental beings corrupted by primordial evil, hating the entire universe, with an end-goal of destroying everything, and who emphasize annihliation over corruption.

Removing the Law/Chaos ethics is all part of this mess. Sigh.

On the other hand, if you take a positive attitude, as you no longer have only the LE-CE split to differentiate devils from demons, you have an easier time with things like unreliable, self-centered and lackadaisical devils on one hand, and with icy, methodical nihilist-demons on the other.

 

[helium3]

Malcanthet is only 3-4 years old. Her first mention was in Dungeon 112 from 2004.

And most of what I've seen her associated with has been pretty lacking. I mean, not bad but not very interesting.

 

[Stogoe]

Yeah, count me amongst those pleased that WotC has finally jettisoned the Great Wheel from the core cosmology. Leave Planescape where it belongs - dead and buried in 2e.

 

[Silverblade The Ench]

Yeah, count me amongst those pleased that WotC has finally jettisoned the Great Wheel from the core cosmology. Leave Planescape where it belongs - dead and buried in 2e.

Well why don't we just call it "World Of Warcraft with Dice" then, hm? sigh

Oddly enough, I've been playing (A)D&D for 20 odd years, and gnomes alignment and the Outer Planes have all been a happy part of that. Mechanics change, big deal, but when you start changing the "fluff" though, oh boy....

Sometimes, tradition IS a good thing.