D&D General No One Reads Conan Now -- So What Are They Reading?

[Mannahnin]

Sword & Sorcery is about personal stakes. The protagonist isn't going to save the world; at best, maybe they're saving a city, and it's usually unintentional (see: antihero).

Stories about selfish people being selfish? No demand for that in fiction, can just pick up a newspaper.

No, I would say that while some S&S protagonists are selfish or antiheroic, in most cases they are heroic or behave heroically, sometimes against their will or better judgement. John McLain from Die Hard also was a reluctant hero. Conan frequently fights evil and wicked men and monsters, and I don't think his actions can be reasonably dismissed as selfish, even if his motivations sometimes are. In this way S&S protagonists are more realistic than ones who have some destined great fate or crusading cause they're passionate about. In the real world heroes are often people who are stuck in a bad spot and behave heroically, but wouldn't describe themselves as heroes.

I think by "personal stakes" we're talking scale of story. This is one of the usual points of contrast between a S&S story and an Epic Fantasy story- scale. Defeating or escaping a monster, or the thieves' guild, or a single wizard, or a life of slavery, rather than defeating the Evil God Who Threatens to Cast the World into Darkness. Often S&S protagonists are fighting for survival more than they are for a grand heroic goal. That being said, S&S can sometimes have a more epic scale, too. As do many of the Elric stories. I would say some moral grayness is commonplace, though.

Haha, there is quite a bit to say about Paul and Herbert. In general I believe in the Death of the Author so I'm not particularly concerned with Herbert's opinions. But I think Herbert's statements regarding Paul are often read/interpreted too simply, and if you stick too strongly to that interpretation you end up killing most of what is interesting about Dune (like the recent movie). There's a much broader conversation to be had about interpretation, the 'right' way to enjoy art...I don't think this is the place though.

Agree regarding Max. Paul shows great reluctance as well.

Well, one of the appeals of the first book is the ambivalence about whether Paul is a heroic figure. In large part his moral virtue rests on his desire to refuse the messiah title and the power which derives from manipulation of a people through cynical myth-making. But when he eventually decides to embrace that, he's functionally rejecting his moral high ground. Of course, the books after the first one are less ambiguous.

 

[Bedrockgames]

It’s hardly Conan though, is it? In Beyond the Black River Conan puts his life on the line to rescue civilians. Not only is there no reward, his sympathies are as much with the natives as the colonialist Aquilonians. The self-serving course of action would have been to do a runner.

And Conan doesn’t have flaws. Even when he does act selfishly, it’s presented as admirable.

I wasn't saying Conan was such a character. I was just responding to the notion that there isn't a call for such characters. Conan as a character is a whole other topic I think (one I would probably want to do a re-read of Howard before engaging in to be honest)

Flawless characters can be fun too (not sure I would say Conan is flawless, but see about comment). Plenty of genres operate that way too. Pick an Arnold movie and most of his characters are flawless. Some times you do just want to see a character killing it. John Wick is kind of like this (he may have personality quirks, but if he walks into a room of 80 foes, they will all be dead in two minutes. Plenty of wuxia heroes are nearly perfect as well (though there are many that are more complicated). I'm not particularly bothered by any of these. I like a range of protagonist types

 

[RhaezDaevan]

Katharine Kerr -Deverry series is a must read.

Anne McCaffrey, Elizabeth Moon, Mercedes Lackey, Mickey Zucker Reichert, Andre Norton, CJ Cherryh, Melanie Rawn, Elizabeth Haydon, Kristin Britain, J.V. Jones

These are some of the giants of the field.

I already have a few of those on my "to read" list. I'll add the others, thanks. I'm not as fast a reader as I used to be (less free time), so we'll see how many I can get to.

 

[Belen]

I already have a few of those on my "to read" list. I'll add the others, thanks. I'm not as fast a reader as I used to be (less free time), so we'll see how many I can get to.

No problem. I think I have probably read more female than male authors although it could be even.

 

[Bedrockgames]

On what sword and sorcery is. That is tricky. It isn't Tolkien. I think sword and sorcery normally has a little more grit, even sleaze to it. And the morality is usually not modern day morality. Also I think Sword and Sorcery frequently has more of an ancient aesthetic rather than a medieval one (it may be kitchen sink like Howard where pirates show up, and vikings can show up, but the places feel more pulled out of the ancient world to me)

 

[Belen]

On what sword and sorcery is. That is tricky. It isn't Tolkien. I think sword and sorcery normally has a little more grit, even sleaze to it. And the morality is usually not modern day morality. Also I think Sword and Sorcery frequently has more of an ancient aesthetic rather than a medieval one (it may be kitchen sink like Howard where pirates show up, and vikings can show up, but the places feel more pulled out of the ancient world to me)

True.

I would classify Katharine Kerr as S&S. Deverry is set in a very Gallic setting.

 

[Umbran]

There's a pretty good chance that you've got the cause and effect backwards there, though. Books that target mens' interest have been (relatively) few and far between, and that's a change that has happened in my lifetime.

Oh, no. The causes of the gap are mostly known, and it isn't that guys just can't find books they like. Just like falling men's college enrollment rates aren't because men can't find schools they don't like.

Broadly, US (and to a significant extent world) culture does not put emphasis on male intellectual achievement. We reward our boys much more for their achievements in athletics than we do in academics. Fathers, if they read to their children at all, are more likely to read to their daughters than their sons. Our images of masculinity are about being physically and socially powerful, rather than about knowing and thinking.

Basically, men don't read as much, because we don't teach our boys to value reading.

 

[RhaezDaevan]

How old are you?!

38. I read a lot more as a teen, but it was mostly mythology books, and a few door-stopper fantasy and sci-fi series. (Wheel of Time was my favourite for a long time) Then there was an almost ten year gap where I was focused more on video games and read almost nothing.

George RR Martin got me back into reading, but then I slipped out of it pursuing other things in my life. I now have a toddler and want to show a good example by getting back into reading regularly. However, having a toddler means I have less time to sit and read.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

38. I read a lot more as a teen, but it was mostly mythology books, and a few door-stopper fantasy and sci-fi series. (Wheel of Time was my favourite for a long time) Then there was an almost ten year gap where I was focused more on video games and read almost nothing.

George RR Martin got me back into reading, but then I slipped out of it pursuing other things in my life. I now have a toddler and want to show a good example by getting back into reading regularly. However, having a toddler means I have less time to sit and read.

What about children’s books? I just find it odd not to have read as many female authors as male. Note that quite a lot of female authors would use initials or pseudonyms to disguise their gender.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Oh, no. The causes of the gap are mostly known, and it isn't that guys just can't find books they like. Just like falling men's college enrollment rates aren't because men can't find schools they don't like.

Broadly, US (and to a significant extent world) culture does not put emphasis on male intellectual achievement. We reward our boys much more for their achievements in athletics than we do in academics. Fathers, if they read to their children at all, are more likely to read to their daughters than their sons. Our images of masculinity are about being physically and socially powerful, rather than about knowing and thinking.

Basically, men don't read as much, because we don't teach our boys to value reading.

But a lot of the slip in male readership we are talking about is recent, from like 2013 to today