No Penalties

[FadedC]

Although it looks like the no penalty thing is incorrect, I should point out that even if it is true the difference between having a penalty and having a smaller bonus is merely one of perception assuming the mechanics are adjusted for the change. It may sound better to do 4 damage with a +1 bonus then to do 8 damage with a -3 penalty, but in the end your still only doing 5 damage and your damage is still less then everyone else's.

 

[hero4hire]

I believe we know by now that Skill Checks are the attribute bonus plus half your level.
+5 to that if you are trained in the skill and probably +5 if you have skill focus.

As I stated in the Spined Devil Thread the listed attribute bonuses in the Spined Devil card are for skills and not for things like damage bonus.

Also the burly Barbarian mentioned in the Podcast would have what a 12 Strength to do 4 str damage with the (ability score/2)-2 formula....I don't think so.

 

[Henry]

I don't want to insult anyone, so I'll just say that your experience is very different from mine and leave it at that.

My experience differs as well, though my example does include "comic" effect. One of my favorite long-running characters was a Fighter with a 6 WIS score. His ability to frequently get 1's, 0's, and -1's on spot, listen, and sense motive checks became as much part of the fun of playing him as much as his well-thought out plans (high INT) that frequently fell apart in combat (low WIS). He wasn't weak-willed (Iron Will feat), but he frequently was distracted, and missed social cues all the time.

Although it looks like the no penalty thing is incorrect, I should point out that even if it is true the difference between having a penalty and having a smaller bonus is merely one of perception assuming the mechanics are adjusted for the change.

One of my gaming group playtested a D&D system of his own design which did this -- we shifted the math so that your ability score was your bonus, a number from 1 to 10, and basically shifted the DC's and AC's for everything up by five points. In the end, we switched back, because it drove us DARNED NUTS recalculating everything from spells to armor, to weapon damages and hit points. I've always preferred "neutral/normal" to be zero, not another number with the bottom being 1... :\

 

[Hairfoot]

So the halfling's player putting 14 or more into Str bothers you? Do you weep when you see an elf with 12+ con?

Of course not. A small constitution penalty is appropriate for a race which is human-sized but often slimmer and frailer.

Having a 3-foot-tall fellow with the strength of a heavyweight boxer is pushing the envelope, though.

 

[Rechan]

Of course not. A small constitution penalty is appropriate for a race which is human-sized but often slimmer and frailer.

That doesn't answer my question. You said that it bothers you when you see a halfling with a 12+ str. Because halflings have -2 to Str. Does it bother you when an Elf has a 12+ con, because elves naturally have a con penalty. So the skinny frail guy has a heartier immune system than the average human. Doesn't that hurt verisimilitude?

Having a 3-foot-tall fellow with the strength of a heavyweight boxer is pushing the envelope, though.

Fantasy, dude. Fantasy.

 

[Hairfoot]

That doesn't answer my question. You said that it bothers you when you see a halfling with a 12+ str. Because halflings have -2 to Str..

No, it bothers me that small races can have a strength score above about 8.

Does it bother you when an Elf has a 12+ con, because elves naturally have a con penalty. So the skinny frail guy has a heartier immune system than the average human. Doesn't that hurt verisimilitude? .

No, because it doesn't flagrantly violate the natural laws the game world assumes elsewhere.

Fantasy, dude. Fantasy.

Ah, well where is the line drawn in that case?

Anything can be excused by saying it's fantasy, but my taste for fantasy includes a hefty dose of real-world realism, which allows for hardy elves and even fire-breathing lizard behemoths that fly, but not for knee-high people of enormous strength.

 

[Rechan]

No, it bothers me that small races can have a strength score above 8.

Ooookay. If a small race shouldn't have a str score above 8, then I guess a medium race shouldn't have a str score above 16.

No, because it doesn't flagrantly violate the natural laws the game world assumes elsewhere.

Where are these laws that I can see them?

Are these the laws that say a several ton lizard can fly?

Ah, well where is the line drawn in that case?

Anything can be excused by saying it's fantasy, but my taste for fantasy includes a hefty dose of real-world realism, which allows for hardy elves and even fire-breathing lizard behemoths that fly, but not for knee-high people of enormous strength.

Then I guess we just have different lines in the sand.

 

[hero4hire]

You two feel free to start a Fantasy Physics thread then.

This one is about the possiblilty of 4e having No Penalties for Attribute Scores.

 

[hectorse]

you can have no penalties and still get different races abilities. Just put the bonus during the race progression we heard of

 

[Rechan]

You two feel free to start a Fantasy Physics thread then.

Actually I was done.