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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Gabester" data-source="post: 3378509" data-attributes="member: 50130">....As we said: benefits you forgot to line up for the fighter:1/2 bonus feat (he'll get a feat next level)No xp penalty (or still has favored class to use).3 reflex save.3 will save.6 fortitude save(those are the average save gains per levelj gained as a fighter, as you'll see it adds up to 1.5 or just half a point below the barbarian and in this case I'd much rather have the reflex and will than just more fortitude)Half a feat is a lot especially if going for a prestige class down the road.  Rage 1/day as a level 1 barbarian is virtually useless.  The other stuff adds up more or less with the exception of the fast movement.  Don't like that?  Simple house rule: just as taking barbarian later doesn't make you illiterate it also doesn't grant fast movement.  I never said the 3e rules are perfect or can't use SOME tweaks but they are pretty darn good.  Doing straightup 3e with multiclassing will end up granting far more balance than introducing all the crazy broken variants in all the sourcebooks out there.But I've already said all this.  You seem to have your fingers in your ears here....Except you don't.  Because if you do the math you'll figure out that multclassing fighter/rogue/ranger just ends up a mess with a lots of bits and no real overall power.  What do you want to be?  A tank or a straight up fighter?  Then frankly you'd have better off with pure fighter.  A sneak?  Then you'd be better off with straight rogue.  Rangers are just fighters with flavor and after 3.0 the benefits for multiclassing with them are very minor.If you really think I'm wrong -- give me examples and then listen when I point out things like, "yes, but the fighter is essentially getting half a feat for level 5 and you're ignoring that".Instead of just saying that, let's look at the reality of it.  What does a cleric lose by taking a level of monk instead of going straight cleric:+2/3rds BAB (unless they are taking multiple levels of monk and crippling their spell-casting they are going to get hit by the +0 at level 1)+1 spellcasting levelA druid loses all that and:2HD of animal campanionsprogression towards wildshape and a bunch of other abilitiesWhat do they gain?  Wisdom bonus to AC?  Uh, yeah, they can wear armor just fine. Improved Grappling?  Uhh, yeah.  I think I'll take better animal companions, more wildshapes, better spells and a better BAB.  Thanks.Again, if you'd stop assuming you were right before the conversation started and just layed out some supposedly broken combos with these classes I'd be glad to disabuse you of that notion.  The only thing really broken about this you will find is the ability to pick up armor/weapon feats retroactively with a level of fighter and this is just one hole in the rules which is very easily patched.  Other than that a bard/fighter is a pretty crappy idea if all you care about is power.  Give up spells, give up songs, give up skills ... for a feat, a teeny boost in hps, 1/2 of a saving throw point and a whopping +1/4th BAB?  Uh, no thanks.  The bard is definitely better off focusing on their core progression.  However if you really want to play a martial bard then yes, you can mix in a bit of fighter.  But really you might as well mix in several levels because, apart from the poorly written armor/weapon rules you are going to gain similar stuff for continuing to multiclass as fighter and for the same sorts of costs.</blockquote>

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