No Save, No SR, No way!

[GodOfCheese]

I just noticed that Message is No Save, No SR. The implications of this are very interesting for a throwaway cantrip.

Sure, I mean, what's the big deal? So I can talk to someone who might not want to hear it, right?

• Deliver Suggestions without other people knowing what they are
• use Arcane Sight or Detect Magic to locate and/or track the recipient(s)
• target distant guard animals and deliver commands to them while imitating their masters' voices. Nobody would hear you.

And the best part is that lacking a saving throw, you don't even get a Spellcraft check to realize what the spell was. Because there's no spell effect, you could even cast it in full view of others. Obviously when you used the message you'd have to point to the recipient, but still...

 

[Angerland]

how does Message not having a Save or SR get around the fact that Suggestion DOES have a save and SR? Though I am not certain you could cast a spell through Message, you would still have to deal with the limitations of the spell you are casting.

 

[Thurbane]

It could be worse, it could be Solid Fog, aka Web/Slow/Entangle huzzah!

 

[Caliban]

how does Message not having a Save or SR get around the fact that Suggestion DOES have a save and SR? Though I am not certain you could cast a spell through Message, you would still have to deal with the limitations of the spell you are casting.

I think the point with Suggestion is that you can theoretically use Message to deliver the "suggestion" without anyone other than the target hearing it - which can be highly useful in many situations outside of combat. You would still have to be able to cast the spells without the spellcasting itself being detected.

 

[Darklone]

Honestly I think that's a great way to deliver these spells in a sneaky fashion

 

[Plane Sailing]

And the best part is that lacking a saving throw, you don't even get a Spellcraft check to realize what the spell was. Because there's no spell effect, you could even cast it in full view of others. Obviously when you used the message you'd have to point to the recipient, but still...

I don't see how this follows... why would you not get a standard Spellcraft check to recognise a spell in progress? And an even easier one to recognise the cantrip being cast by the funny man pointing his finger and holding copper wire while speaking the words of the spell clearly?

 

[green slime]

I don't see how this follows... why would you not get a standard Spellcraft check to recognise a spell in progress? And an even easier one to recognise the cantrip being cast by the funny man pointing his finger and holding copper wire while speaking the words of the spell clearly?

My thought exactly.

 

[eamon]

And as to using arcane sight or detect magic to track the recipients... well.. isn't there a more flexible way of doing that? And in any case, the range of detect magic is fairly limited, and I'd rule that the recipient is aware of the spell. He can probably hear you breathing for one, and hear everything else you say and cast unnaturally clearly...

 

[GodOfCheese]

And as to using arcane sight or detect magic to track the recipients... well.. isn't there a more flexible way of doing that? And in any case, the range of detect magic is fairly limited, and I'd rule that the recipient is aware of the spell. He can probably hear you breathing for one, and hear everything else you say and cast unnaturally clearly...

I don't think it works that way. Per The SRD:

You point your finger at each creature you want to receive the message. When you whisper, the whispered message is audible to all targeted creatures within range.

This suggests that you can switch it on and off, making it useless for eavesdropping and the like. If you cast it on someone without his/her knowledge, he/she would receive your messages and might not even know where they were coming from.

Imagine an illusionist using this. Why bother with ventriloquism when a zero-level spell works even better?

Major Image of someone the illusionist wants the party to perceive as the bad guy is present. On the way in, the illusionist already cast Message on several members of the good guys before they spotted him. The illusionist "speaks" to all partymembers using Message. They may or may not know how he's speaking to them this way, but it allows him to move around at will while the party parleys. When negotiations fail, he's already at the exit.

Heck, because the spell is non-offensive, the illusionist could cast it while invisible. When they enter, he can leave and just stand near the doorway so there's a path of effect.

Things go sour, and the illusionist locks the door behind him, triggering whatever horror he had prepared for them.

 

[UltimaGabe]

Heck, because the spell is non-offensive, the illusionist could cast it while invisible. When they enter, he can leave and just stand near the doorway so there's a path of effect.

I'm afraid you are incorrect.

The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature. For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe. (Exactly who is a foe depends on the invisible character’s perceptions.)

...as per the SRD. Even if it's non-offensive, if you target a foe with a spell, you become visible. The word "offensive" doesn't even show up. You'd become visible even if you cast Detect Magic at your opponent, for example.