'no two creatures more then 30' apart' simple phrase, big fight

[frankthedm]

The fact that it takes a 5' reach weapon to reach to the adjacent square does not make you "5' apart" from occupants of that square. It only means you can reach to squares that are in the adjacent squares.

Actually, it does, that why you have to move 5' to get into that square.

 

[Nail]

IIf there is 5 feet(1 square) between two creatures, they are 5 feet apart, yes?

Nope.

They are 10 feet apart.

 

[Nail]

So, in last nights game a cleric casts a Greater Command spell on a group of Fire Giants. When checking the spell details it has the limit listed in the title. Upon checking the distance between two of the Giants there was exacty 30 feet of space between them (6 squares). I said this made them more then 30 feet apart and the caster disagreed saying they were 30 feet apart but not more then that.

To get from one square of "Fire Giant A" to one square of "Fire Giant B" you have to have traveled 7 squares, or 35 feet.

The Spell Greater Command could not have affected both Fire Giants.

 

[Nail]

For those that doubt, think about the concepts of "5-foot step", "reach", and "move" in 3.xe D&D.

You'll get the picture.

 

[frankthedm]

Reach weapon rules illustrate this fairly well.

Reach Weapons
Glaives, guisarmes, lances, longspears, ranseurs, spiked chains, and whips are reach weapons. A reach weapon is a melee weapon that allows its wielder to strike at targets that aren’t adjacent to him or her. Most reach weapons double the wielder’s natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away.

 

[Deset Gled]

For further proof that an adjacent creature is 5' away, review the details of splash weapons. These rules specify that a 5' splash range will only affect adjacent squares.

Also, the Magic Overview section states that you "count out the distance from the point of origin in squares just as you do when moving a character", so moving to an adjacent square would count as 5'. It also states that "If the spell’s area only touches the near edge of a square, however, anything within that square is unaffected by the spell," explicitly showing that just touching the edge of a square is not sufficient.

 

[frankthedm]

Now if someone want to say this seems wonky, I won't disagree with that. Hell here is a post that sums up the issue quite well.

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=185863

That "rule" is patently wrong. Imagine 3 people in an equilateral triangle, each exactly 30 feet apart from each other(or as close as it is possible in th 5ft squares). None of them would be within the area of the 15ft radius spell, yet all 3 should be affected by a single Haste.

Imagine-shmagine, here is a visual aid.

 

[Artoomis]

Actually, it does, that why you have to move 5' to get into that square.

No.... think real life for a minute. Stand right next to someone, holding hands. You are 0' feet apart, right? You MUST be, as you are actually touching. And yet, to move to the spot they occupy you must travel a couple of feet or so.

The distance apart you are is how far you must move to be adjacent, not how far you need to move to be in the same space.

Let's try another real-life analogy. Put two 5' long tables together (so that the result is 10' long) How far apart are they? Answer: 0' apart, though we must move one of them 5' if we want it to occupy the same space as the other.

"Apart," by definition, is the amount of space BETWEEN objects or people and has really nothing to do with the concept of reach, etc.

 

[frankthedm]

No.... think real life for a minute. Stand right next to someone, holding hands. You are 0' feet apart, right? You MUST be, as you are actually touching.

And we are occupying the same square.

Go somewhere with floortile or mark off a 5' square on the ground. Mark a second 5' sqaure nect to that. stand in the center of one square with someone else in the center of the other square. That's the typicle distance characters have between them on the combat grid.

 

[Artoomis]

And we are occupying the same square.

Go somewhere with floortile or mark off a 5' square on the ground. Mark a second 5' sqaure nect to that. stand in the cent of one square with someone else in the center of the other square. Thats the typicle distace characters have between them on the combat grid.

Ah, but that's not really the way it works, or you could never reach someone with a fist.

It a real problem with terminology and the abstract nature of D&D combat and placement.

Personally, I think they should have stated a radius of effect to keep it simple.