noblility ranks need help

[Turjan]

For other ideas, you can do it sorta modeled on the German experience, where you had an emperor (or imperial throne which sometimes was empty), followed by kings (who often aspired to the imperial throne), then princes (who often conspired against the kings and emperors, followed by Dukes, Viscounts, and Barons, as per BG's post. Knights are not nobility, though they can make the jump.

Note that Germany proper only had one king before the Napoleonic times, with Bohemia being the only other territory north of the alpes connected with the title of king. The position of German King was filled by election. In early times, all higher nobles had the right to take part in the election, later it was a more or less hereditary position with 7 "Electors". Sometimes, the elector title and position was taken by force, like when the dukes of Bavaria sacked the Palatine.

 

[DungeonmasterCal]

Or try this:
http://www.sca.org/heraldry/titles.html

 

[DanMcS]

For a great table of ranks and peerages, see the 1E Greyhawk boxed set. Best table for that sort of thing Ive ever seen.

Ah, yes, a boxed set that has been out of print for 20 years, he should pick that right up.

 

[AIM-54]

Note that Germany proper only had one king before the Napoleonic times, with Bohemia being the only other territory north of the alpes connected with the title of king. The position of German King was filled by election. In early times, all higher nobles had the right to take part in the election, later it was a more or less hereditary position with 7 "Electors". Sometimes, the elector title and position was taken by force, like when the dukes of Bavaria sacked the Palatine.

Well aware. I was just simplifying for those more interested in the basic structure than the intricacies of medieval German politics.

And Germany proper isn't quite what I was referring to, as it was fairly fluid, particularly within the realm of the empire, where kings from other regions, such as Bohemia, would be in the running for the imperial crown (conveyed by the pope in Rome) and borders changed with the ebb and flow of European wars and politics.

 

[Turjan]

And Germany proper isn't quite what I was referring to, as it was fairly fluid, particularly within the realm of the empire, where kings from other regions, such as Bohemia, would be in the running for the imperial crown (conveyed by the pope in Rome) and borders changed with the ebb and flow of European wars and politics.

Actually, the outer borders of the Empire were relatively stable. They moved a bit back and forth, but not really much. I mentioned Bohemia, because it was part of the German core for about a millenium, and you cannot really speak as "outside" in this case. Prague bears the honour to be seen as the only case of a German capital during the whole medieval time, though only for a short period. In order to be available as Emperor, the aspirant had to be elected German King first. This means there was no real application from outside.

 

[Aaron L]

Ah, yes, a boxed set that has been out of print for 20 years, he should pick that right up.

He can buy the .pdf pretty easily, I do believe. I have. I was just trying to be helpful.

 

[AIM-54]

Actually, the outer borders of the Empire were relatively stable. They moved a bit back and forth, but not really much. I mentioned Bohemia, because it was part of the German core for about a millenium, and you cannot really speak as "outside" in this case. Prague bears the honour to be seen as the only case of a German capital during the whole medieval time, though only for a short period. In order to be available as Emperor, the aspirant had to be elected German King first. This means there was no real application from outside.

Clearly my understand of the First Reich pales in comparison to yours.

My definition of Germany proper tends to get confused with the modern boundaries sliced back in time. As a student of international affairs, I'm a slave to the modern nation-state.

Thus, when I think of Bohemia it is, at best, part of the Habsburg Empire and not a German territory at all, however German it may have been at one point.

 

[Turjan]

Clearly my understand of the First Reich pales in comparison to yours.

My definition of Germany proper tends to get confused with the modern boundaries sliced back in time. As a student of international affairs, I'm a slave to the modern nation-state.

Thus, when I think of Bohemia it is, at best, part of the Habsburg Empire and not a German territory at all, however German it may have been at one point.

No need to get snarky . After all, the nation state is a modern concept. And Bohemia wasn't part of the Habsburg territories in the Middle Ages, but it was always part of the Holy Roman Empire, unlike other parts of the later Habsburg territories.

Edit: This doesn't really touch on the question what kind of people lived in Bohemia. Although the number of Germans in Bohemia was quite large at the end of the Middle Ages, most people were Czech. Most of the time, the kings were Czech, too. When Karel IV. (from Luxembourg) was king (and Emperor), he insisted that the children of Germans in Bohemia learned Czech. The situation worsened later, during the Hussite wars. The Middle Ages were no times for nationalisms.

 

[AIM-54]

No need to get snarky . After all, the nation state is a modern concept. And Bohemia wasn't part of the Habsburg territories in the Middle Ages, but it was always part of the Holy Roman Empire, unlike other parts of the later Habsburg territories.

Edit: This doesn't really touch on the question what kind of people lived in Bohemia. Although the number of Germans in Bohemia was quite large at the end of the Middle Ages, most people were Czech. Most of the time, the kings were Czech, too. When Karel IV. (from Luxembourg) was king (and Emperor), he insisted that the children of Germans in Bohemia learned Czech. The situation worsened later, during the Hussite wars. The Middle Ages were no times for nationalisms.

My apologies, my intent was not to be snarky , merely acknowledge my deficiencies in understanding Medieval Germany. My bias and training with the state system as the basis for understanding politics and international affairs thus translates poorly to understanding the political construction of the pre-Westphalian world.

While no time for nationalism, I would argue that the diversity of lands and nations (in ethno-cultural terms) that the Empire covered, did affect imperial policy. One of the emperors that came from Sicily, for example, tended to focus imperial policy on Italy, to the detriment of the German lands (I really want to say states here. Really. ).

Let me say it has been a pleasure discussing this with you.

 

[Turjan]

While no time for nationalism, I would argue that the diversity of lands and nations (in ethno-cultural terms) that the Empire covered, did affect imperial policy. One of the emperors that came from Sicily, for example, tended to focus imperial policy on Italy, to the detriment of the German lands (I really want to say states here. Really. ).

Heh, he didn't like the weather in Germany . And yes, they really were nearly sovereign after his rule. Nearly .

Let me say it has been a pleasure discussing this with you.

The pleasure is on my side .