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<blockquote data-quote="JamesonCourage" data-source="post: 5975962" data-attributes="member: 6668292"><p>I disagree that it's based on class, though.</p><p></p><p>Again, I disagree. From the 3.5 DMG:</p><p></p><p>So far, we've established that there is an "average" and that these is a "cut above the average" in the assumed setting. We've also established that there are "elite" characters (that can explicitly be PCs or NPCs), so we know that there are "elite" NPCs, just like there are "elite" PCs (who are both a "cut above the rest"), which seems to work somewhat against your "the PCs are special" argument, though it doesn't say that the PCs aren't special. But, it goes on to say:</p><p></p><p>Obviously, the PC "specialness" is still assumed (PCs get maximum hit points at first level, and roll 4d6 rather than 3d6). However, the DMG explicitly mentions that some "PC" classes are "average" people, and doesn't say whether this is for PCs or NPCs (which means that you could have an "average" PC as a Fighter, potentially, even if that's not the base assumption).</p><p></p><p>The thing is, though, that the classes are better than the "NPC" classes (which PCs can take), but that doesn't make the person with that class inherently a "cut above average" as described by the game's assumptions; it explicitly calls out "average" fighters and wizards.</p><p></p><p>I'd, once again, disagree. Even at 4d6, we're looking at, what, a 12.2 across the board? That's "above average", but it's hardly "head and shoulders" better than NPCs based on abilities. And, if we're judging things by class (of which fighters and wizards can be "average"), we can always roll on the Random NPC Class table on page 110 of the DMG; of course, if we did so, none of the "NPC" classes are listed (only the 11 PHB "PC" classes are listed).</p><p></p><p>If we skip to page 131 of the 3.5 DMG, we get this:</p><p></p><p>This, once again, states that PCs are indeed "special", but is it based on class? Let's read on:</p><p></p><p>So, the difference between the classes is based on training, not on PC "specialness" or the like. Reading on:</p><p></p><p>Again, NPCs are fine to have above average ability scores, be "elite", and even take PC classes. It seems to be assumed that this is the case, based on the NPC and the training that NPC has had.</p><p></p><p>What separates the PCs and the NPCs aren't the classes, it's that "elite" status (maximum HP at level 1, and above average ability scores), but even those are assumed to be bypassed and for NPCs to have this status. They aren't better than the rest of the world, they're just a "cut above the average" (and not head and shoulders above the rest).</p><p></p><p>The Fighter isn't like Michael Jordan, he's like a professional basketball player: he's well trained, practiced, and has a natural gift. Michael Jordan, though, is just a higher level version of that same thing, with potentially better stats rolled.</p><p></p><p>Again, just my views, and it's okay that we disagree. And, once again, this isn't even how my RPG works, but D&D as I'm familiar with it and within the context that you used it (basically 3e PHB classes). Thanks for the thoughts, though. As always, play what you like <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="JamesonCourage, post: 5975962, member: 6668292"] I disagree that it's based on class, though. Again, I disagree. From the 3.5 DMG: So far, we've established that there is an "average" and that these is a "cut above the average" in the assumed setting. We've also established that there are "elite" characters (that can explicitly be PCs or NPCs), so we know that there are "elite" NPCs, just like there are "elite" PCs (who are both a "cut above the rest"), which seems to work somewhat against your "the PCs are special" argument, though it doesn't say that the PCs aren't special. But, it goes on to say: Obviously, the PC "specialness" is still assumed (PCs get maximum hit points at first level, and roll 4d6 rather than 3d6). However, the DMG explicitly mentions that some "PC" classes are "average" people, and doesn't say whether this is for PCs or NPCs (which means that you could have an "average" PC as a Fighter, potentially, even if that's not the base assumption). The thing is, though, that the classes are better than the "NPC" classes (which PCs can take), but that doesn't make the person with that class inherently a "cut above average" as described by the game's assumptions; it explicitly calls out "average" fighters and wizards. I'd, once again, disagree. Even at 4d6, we're looking at, what, a 12.2 across the board? That's "above average", but it's hardly "head and shoulders" better than NPCs based on abilities. And, if we're judging things by class (of which fighters and wizards can be "average"), we can always roll on the Random NPC Class table on page 110 of the DMG; of course, if we did so, none of the "NPC" classes are listed (only the 11 PHB "PC" classes are listed). If we skip to page 131 of the 3.5 DMG, we get this: This, once again, states that PCs are indeed "special", but is it based on class? Let's read on: So, the difference between the classes is based on training, not on PC "specialness" or the like. Reading on: Again, NPCs are fine to have above average ability scores, be "elite", and even take PC classes. It seems to be assumed that this is the case, based on the NPC and the training that NPC has had. What separates the PCs and the NPCs aren't the classes, it's that "elite" status (maximum HP at level 1, and above average ability scores), but even those are assumed to be bypassed and for NPCs to have this status. They aren't better than the rest of the world, they're just a "cut above the average" (and not head and shoulders above the rest). The Fighter isn't like Michael Jordan, he's like a professional basketball player: he's well trained, practiced, and has a natural gift. Michael Jordan, though, is just a higher level version of that same thing, with potentially better stats rolled. Again, just my views, and it's okay that we disagree. And, once again, this isn't even how my RPG works, but D&D as I'm familiar with it and within the context that you used it (basically 3e PHB classes). Thanks for the thoughts, though. As always, play what you like :) [/QUOTE]
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