Nominations are up!!

[Arnwyn]

Empaneled judges determining the winners assures that it isn't just a popularity contest--if we want to know what's the most popular, we already know, more or less--it's the thing that sold the most. But if we want to know what's best, we need a process that tries to weed out the influence of popularity. And, it seems to me, the whole point of awards is precisely to do this--to measure something *other* than popularity.

I was under the impression that the current voting system already addresses this.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

I know Mongoose didn't (and I'm aware that people have "varying" opinions on Mongoose products, but I've heard very good things - for example - about stuff like The Drow War campaign).

I wonder why Mongoose didn't participate? Their stuff has gotten better and better over the years, especially their OGL stuff, specifically their licensed products: Conan and Babylon 5, and Starship Troopers seems to have a strong following also.

 

[Vocenoctum]

Actually, the only people who should really have a say in the awards are the fans & consumers. The publishers most definitely should not be making any of the decisions. It's precisely those being judged also deciding how the judging should occur that has ruined many other awards, both RPG and otherwise. And by 'ruined', i mean making them irrelevant to the people they're supposed to be informing: the fans/consumers.

I think the problem with the ENnies is simply that it draws on ENWorld so much. You have judges drawn from the insular forum, which often comes down to popularity, making decisions based on what is submitted to them, and then a popularity vote on which of those products is the best.
Sure it's the "best award of the RPG Industry", but that's more because of the size of the "industry" than the awards themselves.

The relevance of the awards has been debated in previous years, and I'm sure it will be again. If publishers see their product being pushed aside by things and decide not to submit next year, then the pool becomes smaller and the consumer sees it. If Mongoose and WotC don't bother submitting, how much do the awards actually matter for overall representation of the hobby?

 

[Vocenoctum]

Is your gripe with people voting 'wrong'? :\

I think it's more than folks will vote for "Best Product" every vote. Rather than voting for Shackled City for it's Setting material when it calls for Setting, they'll still vote for "Best Product".

 

[Turjan]

I wonder why Mongoose didn't participate? Their stuff has gotten better and better over the years, especially their OGL stuff, specifically their licensed products: Conan and Babylon 5, and Starship Troopers seems to have a strong following also.

I suppose Vocenectum gave the answer. If most of the voters come from the EN World pool, it's probably a futile endeavor for them, given the general attitude towards them, regardless whether that attitude is justified or not.

 

[Psion]

The relevance of the awards has been debated in previous years, and I'm sure it will be again. If publishers see their product being pushed aside by things and decide not to submit next year, then the pool becomes smaller and the consumer sees it. If Mongoose and WotC don't bother submitting, how much do the awards actually matter for overall representation of the hobby?

Mearls has opined that WotC not submitting to the ennies gives a chance for smaller publishers to shine.

While I still think it would be good for WotC to participate, in a way I see the point. Witness the fear and loathing over Shackled City, which while not WotC published, is (c) WotC and has a voting block consisting of the Dungeon readership. If it had been, oh, Barakus in the same shoes, nobody would have likely complained about its presence. Now imagine if WotC put products in the mix... you have the same thing to a bigger degree. So while I'd like to see WotC participate, I don't know if I have a good way to handle the implications.

Now, that said, what are White Wolf and Palladium? Chopped liver?

In the end, if you try to see the awards as deriving the best products, you probably won't get what you are looking for.

If you are looking for the most loved products, you won't get what you are looking for.

If you are looking for the awards as being a way for the fans to express their appreciation for a good job by the creative forces behind some great products, and to give a bit more exposure to under-appreciated games, then you might find yourself a bit happier in the end.

 

[Psion]

I suppose Vocenectum gave the answer. If most of the voters come from the EN World pool, it's probably a futile endeavor for them, given the general attitude towards them, regardless whether that attitude is justified or not.

If there is a place that can complain about products, it's ENWorld.

But I think it would be a mistake for Mongoose to assume that they are somehow targeted to the exclusion of other companies. There's plenty of whining on enworld to go around.

I've seen no lack of love for Conan 'round these parts, for example.

 

[diaglo]

I think the problem with the ENnies is simply that it draws on ENWorld so much. You have judges drawn from the insular forum, which often comes down to popularity, making decisions based on what is submitted to them, and then a popularity vote on which of those products is the best.

w00t. i'm a popular insular judge. are you sure we are talking about the same judges?

maybe we need to get more people to enter next year for the judge contest. the reason i entered and won i guess was my outspoken hat of d02. i was tired of the same old same old. and i finally got a chance to have my say and be heard.

 

[Vocenoctum]

Mearls has opined that WotC not submitting to the ennies gives a chance for smaller publishers to shine.

I've seen that, and it's possible. They might also not want to get entangled financially. It's also possible they gave it a mercenary look and said "will the expense recoup the costs" and found it wouldn't.

I do remember the year WotC products were ineligible for a lot of the awards, simply because the awards were all D20/OGL and they didn't "qualify". I don't think they've submitted since then, but not sure that it matters, given WotC's personaly turnovers since then.

While I still think it would be good for WotC to participate, in a way I see the point. Witness the fear and loathing over Shackled City, which while not WotC published, is (c) WotC and has a voting block consisting of the Dungeon readership. If it had been, oh, Barakus in the same shoes, nobody would have likely complained about its presence.

Possibly true, but almost EVERYTHING gets whipped over on the forums here, so I wouldn't take that bet.
That said, I'm sure my dislike of Shackled City is partly responsible for me entering this discussion, though not for my continueing to debate. (It just seemed like folks wanted to turn it into "publishers complaining" when I'm sure plenty of other folks agree with what is said.) I don't have the hardcover, but found Shackled City hard to integrate into differing playstyles and settings, way too specific, and most of the adventures were too odd to sync one after the other. Age of Worms was better for me, but the adventures lacked, IMO... that's neither here nor there though.

(Whispering Cairn SHOULD have been best adventure, lettuce follow the wisdom of Diaglo!)

Now imagine if WotC put products in the mix... you have the same thing to a bigger degree. So while I'd like to see WotC participate, I don't know if I have a good way to handle the implications.

I think the best answer is the tiered award (gold, silver, bronze), if WotC got the Gold and someone else got the silver, they could still be content to know it. If WotC got the silver, then they could shout from the rooftops that they beat out Product X from WotC.

Now, that said, what are White Wolf and Palladium? Chopped liver?

Yup, totally inconsequential.

If you are looking for the awards as being a way for the fans to express their appreciation for a good job by the creative forces behind some great products, and to give a bit more exposure to under-appreciated games, then you might find yourself a bit happier in the end.

I see the awards as what ENWorld likes best. That combines popularity as well as the underdog that gets championed. It's a good thing the awards are constantly evolving, IMO, but I think it should also be accepted that the "importance" of the awards isn't far beyond ENWorld, and that ENWorld is neither the center of RPGs/D20, nor representative of the hobby as a whole. They're useful and fun, though not sure they're worth the work/expense, that's not for me to judge, as I spend neither on them.

 

[Vocenoctum]

w00t. i'm a popular insular judge. are you sure we are talking about the same judges?

You're one of the more colorful fishes in the small pond.

My point is, the judges aren't grabbed from anywhere else, just ENworld's community.