Non-AC Defenses

[Runestar]

I didn't suggest using a standard array, either, but simply commented that a one-trick pony doesn't get a lot of sympathy. Maybe you didn't actually go down that one-trick pony path, but IME when you start with an 18 stat that's what generally happens.

I would argue that the existing stat array is not really conducive for supporting 3 stats.

Let's say I am a half-orc rogue. I pump str and dex. There is really no reason for me to boost wis or cha whatsoever. If I tried to split my stats evenly, the end result is likely that I will end up sucking for all my 3 defenses.

So may as well cut my losses. Focus on my 2 strongest aspects, and resign myself to to the realisation that I will never make a will save ever again. Not that I like it though.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Really, as long as it's not disrupting gameplay, what business does a DM have micromanaging the PC's choices like that?

None whatsoever, as long as it doesn't end up leading to houserules! Anyway, I certainly don't get on players about their character decisions and the last thing I would do is micromanage them. But, understanding the root cause of the problem and fixing just that is important.

 

[Infiniti2000]

So may as well cut my losses. Focus on my 2 strongest aspects, and resign myself to to the realisation that I will never make a will save ever again. Not that I like it though.

I don't buy this attitude at all. What are we talking about here, +1 cumulative per tier? And, you're throwing in the towel for 15%?

 

[Trebor62]

I made up a quick human paladin 15th level focused on AC and FRW defenses

Human and Paladin chosen for the +1 each gives to FRW defenses

AC 34 Opportuninity attacks AC36; Crystal Warplate armor +4, heavy shield
Fort 31
Ref 30
Will 28 Bloodied 30 from Crystal War Plate

+4 cloak for FRW

Attributes Str 22, Con 12, Dex , Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 16

The Int 16 was to gain +3 to Will

Paragon Feats: Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes

Personnel I dont think this would be a lot of fun to play as it's focus is on not getting bashed as opposed to bashing.

 

[STAT]

I don't buy this attitude at all. What are we talking about here, +1 cumulative per tier? And, you're throwing in the towel for 15%?

Why not? All most people are getting out of pumping their off stat is a tiny boost to a NAD. Instead of boosting that I can put that boost into a primary or secondary stat and get a relatively larger boost. You're not going to be any good at that last stat anyway like Runestar said. Might as well pump my main stat and get +hit, +dam, +NAD, +class features, +rider effects or your secondary stat and get +NAD, +class features, +rider effects.

Both of those beat the hell out of an anemic NAD boost. There are probably exceptions but I'd say that's the standard trade off.

 

[Rothe_]

Also, it often comes down to having one good NAD and one really poor one OR having mediocre NAD's. If the mediocre NAD's are getting hit on a 5+ (often are) then I'd rather have one NAD as high as possible - at least I can rely on that a little bit and I might be able to choose opponents to engage based on that.

Would you rather have 17 - 12 - 12, than 15 - 13 - 13 ? For me it depends on the hit bonus of the opponents on the average.

 

[Tuft]

I'd rather have one NAD as high as possible - at least I can rely on that a little bit and I might be able to choose opponents to engage based on that.

<joke>
The obvious solution is to run it like a skill challenge - the player picks one defense to use, and then gives a motivation why that defense is applicable...
</joke>

 

[eamon]

What Rothe, STAT, and Runestar said:
Raising your weakest nad by +1 is almost worthless; but doing so has a high opportunity cost (in terms of primary/secondary stat). Just run the numbers. You're always better off (in the current system) boosting primary and secondary attributes, and just cutting your losses (being your NADs).

As a party, too, it's worthwhile to have at least one party member for each NAD that's good in that NAD to do things like hold the line in hallways while being pounded in the NADs.

With the current rules, a player that tries to keep his lowest NAD competitive is gimping is character. I suspect that a player that tries to keep even his second-to-lowest NAD competitive is being unwise, but that's less clear cut.

 

[Davachido]

I think the NADs at the moment are quite decent, maybe not perfect put still works to a good extend if we take into account all abilities. I think too many players try to only do damage and forget about statuses/defenses.

I'll give an example, currently I have 2 groups running the same campaign (heroic tier atm) doing the same mission the first group got hit a load, and the other were able to beat most of the groups barely taking any damage.

The difference was how the defender in each group was built, the first defender didn't take the feat or powers to do full out defending whereas the 2nd group had a defender that did nothing but that. In numeric terms:

Baseline hit for monsters: rolling 8s to hit PCs
Mark: -2 to hit
Feats: (+1 def) Varying but at level 3 was able to boost defense by +1 for anything the defender was marking.
Extras: People using powers to up the defenses or using second winds/total defense.

Total: 11+ on NADs (13-16 if powers came into play)

This was only with one feat on the fighter, using mutlitarget hits to mark more targets. At later levels you have even more tools to be able to lower attacks again.

For example a paladin + rattling rogue, again numeric example:

Assuming hit for paragon tier on NADs: 7
Mark: -2 to hit
Rogue: -2 to hit
Powers: -2 to hit (varying but you can pull this off with an at-will)

Total: 13+ on NADs (this can increase depending on other powers/feats used to boost defenses)

So no feats in play here, paragon tier synergy between to party members to make it more difficult for the monsters. I have often found that if there is a good defender/controller/supporter (striker helping debuff) then the party doesn't get hit that much.

Of course there is still the problem that there is always members with a lower defense than the others except maybe for the defenders, but I think this was inbuilt because even the monsters have one lower defense than the others and the DMG states this. The DMG also says not to tell your players which defense is the lowest for the monster.


Summary: In my opinion the design intent was to make the defenders let the to-hits drop to about the 50% line then feats/other powers to drop the hit to 25-40%. Although as I stated before it ain't perfect some tweaks could be done, I'm just not sure of the best way.

 

[Infiniti2000]

You're always better off (in the current system) boosting primary and secondary attributes, and just cutting your losses (being your NADs).

I don't know about you, but the last thing I'm gonna do is cut my NADs. Seriously, though . . .

What Rothe, STAT, and Runestar said:
Raising your weakest nad by +1 is almost worthless; but doing so has a high opportunity cost (in terms of primary/secondary stat).

Bear with me for a second here, because there's something I'm not following, math-wise. So far, a vast majority of the proposed houserules are +1/+2/+3 at 5th/15th/25th. Right? So, mathematically-speaking how is +1 (from 1st-level) worthless? You can't argue that +1 is both the saving grace and worthless at the same time. In fact, mathematically, +1 to a low NAD FIXES the problem for 15 levels (mores, and fixes it by half (50%) for another 10 levels. So, if you can live with a 5% deficiency, you're good until level 25.