Non-Core Class Survivor: Round 3

[Rystil Arden]

a) I am ninja

Spoiler

I think you missed the edit, probably by seconds

2) compare round 1 to round 2--my army grows.

In that case, you have 4x as many votes to kick you off the island than the DN does--looks like you won't be around long enough to savour your victory, shinobi

 

[Jdvn1]

In that case, you have 4x as many votes to kick you off the island than the DN does--looks like you won't be around long enough to savour your victory, shinobi

I'm multiclassed.

Spoiler

Blast, I was hoping you wouldn't notice that!

And I have multiple characters.



Anyway, as long as I"m successful, eventually, that's okay.

 

[airwalkrr]

Not the Marshal! Noooo!

And now you want to eliminate the Dragon Shaman? Why all the hating on well-balanced support classes? Man, y'all are wack.

Well balanced??? The marshal is the only class I ban outright from my games because it is so ridiculous. The main problem is that EVERY Charisma-based class gets a huge boost out of dipping into it. The minor aura does NOT need to be based on Charisma, or at least there needs to be a practical limit.

Billy the Fighter: So Tom, what are you going to take for your next level?
Tom the Bard: Oh, definitely marshal. +8 to initiative bonuses here we come!
Billy: +8 to initiative bonuses you say? Sign me up! The marshal is such a great class! Everyone with at least a +1 Charisma modifier in our party needs to take a level. Hooray, marshal!
DM: *grits teeth* Urge to kill... rising.

 

[airwalkrr]

Hmm... you know, now that I see it again, I fear not enough people know Heroes of Horror to get a proper grasp on their two base classes. and with only one entry, an eberron artificer elimination would completely eliminate their book.

I have only one problem with either of those classes. The dread necromancer's charnel touch is front-loaded if you also have levels in a class that provides sneak attack. Sure, it's a standard action, but on any action you move into flank and then attack it's like guaranteeing a hit. Kinda wonky. I don't think that minor slight makes it a bad class though. I have a problem in general with classes like the warmage, dread necromancer, and beguiler in that their limited spell lists make them very one dimensional and their special abilities don't seem to make up for it. I don't think that is the way to go for spontaneous casters. Plus spontaneous casters to me should be people with innate magic, not variant specialist wizards, which is more or less what these are. Anyway, none of that is really a problem with the class, it's more philosophical and I have far greater beefs with other classes.

The archivist is a wonderful class on the other hand. Absolutely no problems there.

 

[airwalkrr]

A 1st-level wilder can push out a 2d10 mind thrust for one power point... at 1st-level. That's breaking the metacap... that's the entire point of Wild Surge. In order to balance this ability (and I use the term loosely), you run a 5% risk of being screwed. 5%. Wouldn't stop me at all, and in return I can double the utility of my power.

2d10 a VERY limited number of times per day on a close range power that only works reliably on creatures with poor Will saves and gets negated when they save is not what I call game-breaking. The psion in my home campaign is still toying with overchannel and he has yet to master the ability of when it is useful to use.

Wilder: Look everybody! I just totally wasted that orc with a mind thrust!
Sorcerer: Cool. How many power points you have left? Can you do that a few more times?
Wilder: Um, no. Just once.
Sorcerer: Ah, I see. Well don't worry, I still have five magic missiles left today. Make sure to use the total defense action while you hide behind me so I don't get stabbed in the back.

It's also pretty bad for things like Astral Construct.

That's a problem with astral construct, not with the wilder.

If the risk were present all the time rather than something random, or even better, using limits rather than penalties to control the class, it might be balanced.

I agree that limits are usually better than penalties. Limits encourage roleplaying. Penalties encourage min/maxing.

 

[Drowbane]

The fact that you consider a Soulborn to be more Gish than a Duskblade, the Gish class, is beyond my comprehension

I suppose "Gish-wannabe" classes would've been more exact. Paladin, Psy-Warrior, Soulborn, Ranger, etc.

 

[Agent Oracle]

2d10 a VERY limited number of times per day on a close range power that only works reliably on creatures with poor Will saves and gets negated when they save is not what I call game-breaking. The psion in my home campaign is still toying with overchannel and he has yet to master the ability of when it is useful to use.

It's still 2-20 damage for a 1st level character. there is no other character that can replicate this level of damage at that point in the game, or for several levels after that... Most things you fight at CR1 happen to have (at most) a +0 will save. Just because you have a foolish character who can't handle their overchannel dosn't negate those that can.

Wilder: Look everybody! I just totally wasted that orc with a mind thrust!
Sorcerer: Cool. How many power points you have left? Can you do that a few more times?
Wilder: Um, no. Just once.
Sorcerer: Ah, I see. Well don't worry, I still have five magic missiles left today. Make sure to use the total defense action while you hide behind me so I don't get stabbed in the back.

Just wanted to point out: a sorcerer at 1st level with a core race could only have 4 magic missiles. He'd have to either have a starting INT of 20, or be at least 2nd level to have 5.

By second level, a psion (with optimal stats, of a core race) has 6 power points. Since Mind thrust is a 1st level power, it only takes 1 power point to manifest, and if he overchannels it, that does not increase the manifesting cost, it just takes 1d8 hitpoints from him. If he dosn't, he's still doing 1d10 damage (save negate) which cannot be matched or exceeded by any spell available to 1st level sorcerers.

And besides, most orcs only have 1d of hit points anyway. the conversation should have gone:

Psion: "Hey, I just wasted that Orc with my powers"
Mage: "Cool, can you do it again?"
Psion: "Sure, I can do 5 more, each for 1d10 damage if I pace myself right, Or (since I'm 2nd level) i can do 2 more at 2d10 damage, and 1 at 1d10."
Mage: "Huh? but, but, I only have 4 more magic missiles that do 1d4...
Psion: "Well, my guys do get a save. It's not that hard, thankfully, orcs can't think for squat."
Mage: "Still, 2d10? that's more damage than the fighter does as a base with his weapon."
Psion: "What? Are you suggestign that I'm unbalanced in the lower levels, where most campaigns start?"

 

[Evilhalfling]

I suppose "Gish-wannabe" classes would've been more exact. Paladin, Psy-Warrior, Soulborn, Ranger, etc.

Perhaps, but the Paladin, PsiWarrior and Duskblade work as classes, others not so much.

I have a problem in general with classes like the warmage, dread necromancer, and beguiler in that their limited spell lists make them very one dimensional and their special abilities don't seem to make up for it.

I dismissed the warmage as an overspecialized blaster, but I really like the other two - They make wonderful NPCs. I had a blast with a DN, his 'Orrible Undead Powers were effective and memorable. I even like the ability to loot splat books for new spells - burning blood anyone?

I am even starting to give some more thought to the warmage, next time I need a straight blaster villian, this will be under consideration - for masterminds I'll stick to wizards or sorcerers

 

[Mercule]

I am even starting to give some more thought to the warmage, next time I need a straight blaster villian, this will be under consideration - for masterminds I'll stick to wizards or sorcerers

I've found that the warmage makes a lot of sense in terms of the sort of person every lord would want a few around. One of the more interesting things I've done is to pair a warmage and bard as personal guards to a lord. The bard is quite capable of asking question, divining, and buffing, while the the warmage looks impressive and is there to kill lots of stuff. Both are armored casters and can look the part of an armed guard.

One thing I'd like to see on the warmage's list (if it isn't already) is Tenser's tranformation. Just too appropriate, especially if the warmage ends up having to deal with a golem or some such.

 

[Hussar]

Like I said, the idea of the warmage is a good one. A militant wizard trained for war. Great. Unfortunately, they can't really do anything a wizard with a wand of fireballs can't.

There's more to being a war wizard than blasting.

Meh, it's just my personal axe. I've seen a couple of war wizards come and go in my camp and both times they've been utterly useless.