Non-Core Class Survivor: Round 7

[occam]

It has more flavor, and more varied abilities, than Wizards, Clerics, and Sorcerors. I mean, how much flavor does a class have to have for you to think it is not boring?

Not so for the cleric. A choice of two domains with associated powers adds a lot of customizability to the class.

 

[NilesB]

Overpowered? Compared to the Cleric? You know it has MAD and Wizard Base Attack right? We've found the Archivist to be great fun in Shackled City.

The cleric casts spells from the cleric spell list and has limited access to 2 domains spell lists.
The cleric casts spells from the cleric spell list and the druid spell list, and the ranger spell list, and the paladin spell list, and the adept spell list, and the Blackguard spell list, and each and each and every domain spell list, (without the 1 per level per day limit of the cleric has) and every new prestige or base classes spell list that gets added to the campaign, and all at the lowest levels that anyone gets them at. some prestige classes are balanced getting spells at a lower level than any base class could because by the time members of these classes get them they are of appropriate character level to use the spell, the archivist short circuts this logic.

 

[Rystil Arden]

The cleric casts spells from the cleric spell list and has limited access to 2 domains spell lists.
The cleric casts spells from the cleric spell list and the druid spell list, and the ranger spell list, and the paladin spell list, and the adept spell list, and the Blackguard spell list, and each and each and every domain spell list, (without the 1 per level per day limit of the cleric has) and every new prestige or base classes spell list that gets added to the campaign, and all at the lowest levels that anyone gets them at. some prestige classes are balanced getting spells at a lower level than any base class could because by the time members of these classes get them they are of appropriate character level to use the spell, the archivist short circuts this logic.

Only if you let it. It's not like the Archivist class forces you to let the Archivist learn spells at a certain level. That's almost like saying a Wizard who learns Hideous Laughter off an Arcane scroll created by a Bard would get it at level 1 because the scroll has it at level 1. There is only one level in which any particular class can learn any particular spell. The Wizard has a spell list hammered out, of course, to make matters clear. For the Archivist, common sense should prevail (So why pick the obscure PrC for your baseline instead of Cleric or Druid?). If everyone is playing to have fun, only the whiniest of players would possibly complain with this decision. I'm a Judge in Living Eberron and we're probably going to allow the Archivist if someone proposes it, but if someone tries to pull crazy PrC hijinks, we're not going to allow it. That's the player, not the class, as mentioned in some conversations with the HoH authors. Why would you factor in an attempted rules-lawyering exploit into discussion of the class's balance? That's like deciding the Kobold race is broken because of Pun-Pun.

 

[NilesB]

A Wizard doesn't have access to the Bard spell list, an Archivist has Access to every divine spellcasters list.

You don't need crazy prestige class hijinks in order for the Archivist to be broken, all it takes is Domains, Druids and Adepts. And if by "common sense" you mean "ignoring the rules as written to create everchanging ad-hoc rulings for each and every spell in the book" you might as well be writing your own new better balanced class for all the work your going to be putting into it.

And in a living campaign, the players will be expecting to be playing by the rules as written.

This isn't analagous to complaining about kobolds this is analagous to complaining about manipulate form.
and maniputlate form is easier to fix.

 

[Rystil Arden]

You don't need crazy prestige class hijinks in order for the Archivist to be broken, all it takes is Domains, Druids and Adepts.

I disagree. The opening up of the spell list in no way overcompensates them for the loss of proficiencies, attack bonus, and hit dice--if anything, the fact that they have to find divine scrolls (which are *so* much rarer than arcane scrolls it isn't even funny) rather than getting all the spells on, say, the cleric list, makes them weaker unless you have a WalMart for scrolls that includes scrolls made by classes that have no reason to make them.

And if by "common sense" you mean "ignoring the rules as written to create everchanging ad-hoc rulings for each and every spell in the book" you might as well be writing your own new better balanced class for all the work your going to be putting into it.

So when the Archivist finds a scroll (written by a Cleric) of a certain spell that is level 4 for a Cleric, you don't think the player is just being ridiculous on the player's part if she says "Awesome! PrC X that exists somewhere in the campaign world but I've never seen it before gets this spell as a first level spell, so I'm adding it as a first level spell?

This isn't analagous to complaining about kobolds this is analagous to complaining about manipulate form.
and maniputlate form is easier to fix.

The Archivist is not broken--Players who try to bend the rules to get spells at ridiculous levels for their Archivist are the problem. Similarly, the Kobold is not broken--players who in this case use the rules correctly can twist the Kobold to gain ultimate power.

 

[NilesB]

So when the Archivist finds a scroll (written by a Cleric) of a certain spell that is level 4 for a Cleric, you don't think the player is just being ridiculous on the player's part if she says "Awesome! PrC X that exists somewhere in the campaign world but I've never seen it before gets this spell as a first level spell, so I'm adding it as a first level spell?

An Archivist isn't going to get most of their spells from random treasure scrolls any more than a Wizard is. Thay are going to trade with other Archivists, or convince divine casters to teach them. If a core only archivist wants to learn Neutralize Poison for example they will ask a Druid or Adept and learn it as a 3rd level spell rather than a Cleric and learn it as a 4th level spell.


Similarly I am not convinced that An archivist is so weak in melee as starting level 7 they can, if they wish combine Divine Power with Polymorph.

 

[Rystil Arden]

An Archivist isn't going to get most of their spells from random treasure scrolls any more than a Wizard is. Thay are going to trade with other Archivists, or convince divine casters to teach them. If a core only archivist wants to learn Neutralize Poison for example they will ask a Druid or Adept and learn it as a 3rd level spell rather than a Cleric and learn it as a 4th level spell.


Similarly I am not convinced that An archivist is so weak in melee as starting level 7 they can, if they wish combine Divine Power with Polymorph.

Divine Power is admittedly great, but they don't have as many proficiencies anyway (no shields) and fewer hit points too. Plus, it's only one round per level each time you cast it out of the whole day. The Cleric with Divine Power is admittedly vulnerable to dispels or the buff running out, but the Archivist is super-vulnerable, since she loses half her BAB when it goes away. Time to buff is a balancing factor--Now, if you let them Divine Metamagic to keep it up all the time, well, Divine Metamagic is the one that's broken