Non-Lethal Damage Tweak

[Water Bob]

(Note: I wrote this in reference to my Conan RPG game, which is based on 3.5 d20. D&Ders should easily understand the two examples though I expressed them in Conan terms.)





The basic 3.5 rule for non-lethal damage has always bugged me a bit because it allows a gang to collectively clobber a person with 100% certainty that the victim will only take non-lethal damage. I've always felt that there should be some chance of beating a person to death when you're trying to just beat them unconscious.

To that end, here's a rule tweak that I'm going to try out in my game. The standard non-lethal damage rules apply except for these two points:

1. Critical damage is always applied as lethal damage.

2. Non-lethal damage applied to an unconscious character is considered lethal damage.





Using this rule tweak, there is now a small chance that a victim can be beat to death inadvertantly. For example, let's say Paul the Pict has 3 HP left, and his adversary, Carl the Cimmerian, wants to capture Paul in order to interrogate him about the location of Paul's tribe. Carl the Cimmerian is going to use the flat of his sword in order to deliver nonlethal damage and capture the Pict. Carl takes the -4 penalty to hit, per the rules, but he rolls a natural 20 on the attack throw. The Critical is checked to indicate that Carl does double damage with his weapon.

Damage is rolled and applied to Paul as lethal damage, possibly killing or severely injuring the Pict. This illustrates the first exception noted above.



Another example would be Carl the Cimmerian, fighting with his bare hands, against Paul the Pict. Carl, using a full action to attack with both fists, attacks Paul, who only has 3 hp left. Carl is attacking unarmed, so any damage he does is considered nonlethal, as described in the rules. Both of Carl's attacks hit, the first doing 5 points of damage, and the second doing 4 points of damage.

Thus, the first attack renders Paul unconscious, with a total of 3 HP and 5 Nonlethal Damage Points. At this point, Paul is considered unconscious, though, so the second hit does lethal damage (4 points). Paul end the round at -1 HP. This is an example of the second rule tweak shown above.



Now, with this tweak, players can no longer be 100% certain that they can subdue the dragon! Keep an NPC's hit points secret, and knocking somebody out becomes a problem more reflective of real life.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

This makes sense to me.

However, could a professional knuckle breaker actually be skilled enough to prevent this from happening? Surely there's a way that someone trained in the art of hurnting you juuust enough could accomplish this. Perhaps add a feat that returns non-leathal damage back to the way it normally is?

 

[Water Bob]

Another tweak I think I'm going to impose in my game centers around movement. I think characters are allowed to move too far, under the 3.5 rules, before another character is allowed to act.

For example, a Cimmerian is exploring an old ruin constructed of Jade stone. He turns a corner and runs into a Savage, 20 feet in front of him. Niether is suprised. Initiative is thrown, and the Savage wins the toss. Playing out the combat round, the Savage runs, 4x movement, down the corridor away from the Cimmerian.

The Cimmerian had his throwing axe in his hand the entire time while exploring the ruin. When it's the Cimmerian's turn to act, he wants to throw his hand axe at the fleeing Savage, but he has no chance of hitting. The range started at 20 feet. Then, the Savage ran 120 feet down the corridor, making range at the beginning of the Cimmerian's turn at 140 feet. The Cimmerian can move 30 feet then throw his axe, and the distance to the Savage would be 110 feet.

The axe has a throwing range of 10 feet, and it's a -1 per 10 feet to a maximum of 5 range increments. This means that the effective range of a thrown axe is 50 feet.

So, under the circumstance described, it is impossible to hit a fleeing foe wiht a hand axe or a throwing knife or similiar weapon, under the rules--even if the weapon is readied. That doesn't seem quite right to me.

Thus, I suggest this change:

During a combat round, a character can only move up to 2x Speed on his turn. After all combatants have acted during the round, any characters moving 3x or 4x Speed may finish their movement in initiative order.





Looking at the example above, and using the tweak, the round would play out like this:

1. Initiaive thrown. Savage wins the toss.

2. Savage runs 2x move. Range to the Cimmerian is 20 ft original separation plus 60 feet of movement, for a total of 80 feet.

3. Cimmerian moves 30 feet after the Savage, decreasing range to 50 foot, and throws his axe with a -4 penalty to hit.

4. If he's able, the Savage can now complete his movement, moving an additional 60 feet, in a straight line.

That seems a lot more fair to me. The Savage still gets a large benefit from winning initiative and using his action to put distance between himself and the pursuing Cimmerian. At the same time, it's not impossible for the Cimmerian to quickly throw his axe after the Savage, albeit at a stern negative modifier.





The impact of this rule tweak may not be as strong as you might think at first. Only characters who run in a straight line are allowed to move at 3x or 4x Speed. And, any type of harsh terrain limits characters to 2x Move. Most of the game is played with characters taking Full Actions and not moving; taking one Move and one Standard action; or taking two Move actions (including the charge). All of those situations will play out normally, and this rule tweak will only come into effect when terrain allows straight long distance movement--and a character willing to give up all other possible actions during the round in order to move it.

Another way to think about the rule tweak is that we're allowing the runner to be targeted at his half-way point in his movement for the round. Again, this makes sense to me since we're trying to simulate simultaneous movement.

 

[Water Bob]

This makes sense to me.

However, could a professional knuckle breaker actually be skilled enough to prevent this from happening? Surely there's a way that someone trained in the art of hurnting you juuust enough could accomplish this. Perhaps add a feat that returns non-leathal damage back to the way it normally is?

So, the questions become: Is it ever possible that a person cannot be beat to death? Can a person highly skilled at knocking people unconscious have a 100% success rate?

I tend to think "no" to both questions, but I also think this is a question for the GM and the type of game he wants to run. If he's got Super Ninja's who can, like in the old TV shows, chop a guy on the neck and watch him fall, then I think the original rule should be used and not this tweak.

This tweak is really more for GMs who want a little more reality expressed in the game with the official non-lethal damage rules.

There's something false, to me, in the certainty that an attacker can bang away at another with enough power to knock the foe unconscious but never actually damage him.

I think the tweak puts a little bit of an edge on the nonlethal rule--enough for players to consider closely what they're doing when its important not to damage a target.

A maiden becomes hysterical, possibly giving away the group's position to the enemy with her cries. Under the official rule, a tough player can move to her then clip her upside the head, downing her, then throwing her over his shoulder.

That's very heroic, and with my tweak, it will happen MOST of the time. But, there's a chance...that the strong warrior moves up to the maiden, clips her upside the head, and inadvertantly breaks her neck.

Knocking people out shouldn't be 100% certain.

 

[Stormonu]

Doesn't sound like a bad tweak.

The one tweak I've picked up from 4E is to drop the penalty to hit for striking non-lethal damage. I want my characters to try taking prisoners or otherwise leave the villains alive (makes it easier to make them recurring).

 

[Water Bob]

Doesn't sound like a bad tweak.

The one tweak I've picked up from 4E is to drop the penalty to hit for striking non-lethal damage. I want my characters to try taking prisoners or otherwise leave the villains alive (makes it easier to make them recurring).

I've got another tweak that I'm working on that makes the combat round very interesting and encourages more hand-to-hand fighting. I rarely see grapple or unarmed attacks used in my game. This tweak will bring those types of things into the game more often. I've got an old version of this tweak that I'm currently using, but I'm thinking of changing the tweak a little bit. I'll post here when I've decided on it.

 

[Water Bob]

The one tweak I've picked up from 4E is to drop the penalty to hit for striking non-lethal damage. I want my characters to try taking prisoners or otherwise leave the villains alive (makes it easier to make them recurring).

Remember, the -4 attack penalty is only applied to weapons designed to deal lethal damage. If you attack with your fists, for example, there is no -4 penalty in order to deal nonlethal damage. On the other hand (so to speak! ), if you attack with a gauntleted hand, then you're using a weapon that's meant to deal lethal damage, and, thus, you must take the -4 attack penalty when trying to deliver nonlethal damage.

I can see a sword being used to deal nonlethal damage as a bit more difficult to wield since it wasn't designed to be used that way. Even if a warrior uses the flat of the blade, the blow might not land flat, allowing the edge to cut a little bit.

So, I think the -4 penalty is worth keeping as written.

The biggest reason, I think, that players don't use a lot of the various combat moves in the game (unarmed attacks, disarms, sunders, etc) is that, unless you've got a special feat, you open yourself up to an Attack of Opportunity.

My tweak that I speak of above addresses that issue. I'll post it soon.

 

[Water Bob]

Here's the combat tweak I mentioned above.

GUSTUD!



When a natural 1 appears on the attack die, the rules say that the attack is an automatic failure. In order to spice up combat, taking it from I-go-you-go to something quite spectacular, I suggest this tweak. Of course, this house rule only applies to melee, not range attacks.

A natural 1 rolled on a melee attack die means that your character is GUSTUD.




GUSTUD is a condition. It's not quite a fumble. It means that, during your next actions, you open yourself up to a particular type of attack by your enemy, and it's up to your foe as to if the attack is carried out--because most GUSTUD attacks have consequences for the attacker as well as the defender.

When a GUSTUD result happens, consider the attack a failure, as per the rules, but also allow the character's foe (the foe that was attacked with the natural 1 result) a special attack type during the foe's next action. The foe is not forced to use the GUSTUD attack--the attack is provided at the foe's option (in other words, if the foe does not care to attempt the specific GUSTUD attack, the foe can just play out his round normally by not taking advantage of the GUSTUD opportunity).

What type of special attack is allowed is determined by rolling on following chart.

A foe that performs a GUSTUD attack is considered to be using an Attack of Opportunity and, thus, if another AoO becomes available during the foe's action, the foe will likely not be able to take advantage of it due to AoO limits. (But, if a character with two attacks per round rolls natural 1's on both of them, then the foe is allowed two separate GUSTUD attacks against the character during the foe's next action--and this counts as two AoOs if the foe has the Combat Reflexes Feat).

GUSTUD CHART
 1d6
-----
  1  Grapple
  2  Unarmed Attack:  Punch
  3  Sunder
  4  Trip
  5  Unarmed Attack:  Kick
  6  Disarm

GUSTUD TABLE RESULTS.

1. GRAPPLE. Foe is allowed to attempt a grapple on the GUSTUD character without the target benefiting from an Attack of Opportunity. In effect, the GUSTUD character has opened himself up to the grapple for a moment during the combat. Use grapple rules per the book. Note that a character attempting a grapple must use both hands and may need to drop his weapon.



2. UNARMED ATTACK: PUNCH. Foe is allowed a punch attack during the next round without the target benefitting from an Attack of Opportunity. This attacks is in addition to the foe's other attacks but an an open hand must be available. It is allowable that a foe wielding a two-handed weapon can attack two-handed then get in a quick punch. But, a foe using a single-handed weapon and a shield cannot punch because no hand is available.

A punch is an Unarmed Strike using the core rules and does non-lethal damage unless the -4 attack penalty is used to deliver lethal damage.

Note that a Full Action is required if the foe makes more than one attack (for example, a 1st level foe can throw a punch at his GUSTUD opponent in addition to his normal attack if the character meets the requirements for a punch and takes a Full Action to perform both attacks.).



3. SUNDER. Foe is allowed a free sunder attack against the GUSTUD character's weapon or armor without the target benefitting from an Attack of Opportunity. The sunder is allowed in addition to the foe's normal attacks.



4. TRIP. Foe is allowed a free attempt to trip the GUSTUD character, in addition to the foe's normal attacks, without the target benefitting from an Attack of Opportunity. The trip can take man forms, from using the foe's leg or weapon as a pivot to a high kick or shoulder shove aimed at knocking the target down. Note that, under the trip rules, if the trip attempt is failed, then the GUSTUD character may attempt to counter with an trip attempt returned against the foe!



5. UNARMED ATTACK: KICK. Foe is allowed a kick attack during the next round without the target benefitting from an Attack of Opportunity. Kick attacks do non-lethal damage unless the -4 attack penalty is used to deliver lethal damage.

A kick is an Unarmed Strike using the core rules, except that a kick delivers 1d4 damage and leaves the foe with a -1 AC (because of the footing) until his next action.

Note that the foe can attempt the kick in addition to his normal attacks, but a Full Action is required if the foe makes more than one attack (for example, a 1st level foe can kick at his GUSTUD opponent in addition to his normal attack if the foe takes a Full Action to perform both attacks.).



6. DISARM. Foe is allowed a disarm maneuver against the GUSTUD character without the target benefitting from an Attack of Opportunity. Use the normal disarm rules. The disarm is performed in addition to the foe's normal attack.







...EXAMPLE...

Carl the Cimmerian is fighting Paul the Pict. Carl has initiative, but at the bottom of round 2, Paul rolls a natural 1 on his attack, which is considered an automatic miss. Paul is now GUSTUD.

At the top of round 3 (Carl's next attack), a d6 is thrown on the GUSTUD chart showing that Paul has opened himself up to a trip attempt by Carl. Carl does not have to attempt the trip (because, according to the trip rules, if he fails, then Paul can then attempt to trip Carl).

But, being the Cimmerian that he is, Carl does decide to take advantage of the free trip attempt. Normally, Carl would only get one attack, but since Paul is GUSTUD, Carl can make the trip attempt, then attempt his normal attack (hopefully, with Paul on the ground!), or Carl can make his attack first, then try the trip.

By the rules, Paul would get an Attack of Opportunity against Carl just before Carl makes the trip attempt, but because this is a GUSTUD attack, Paul does not get the Attack of Opportunity.

Let's say, during this same round, that one of Paul's tribesmen comes close enough for Carl to make an Attack of Opportunity against him. Carl does not have the Combat Reflexes Feat, and thus, by the rules, is limited to one AoO per round. And, the GUSTUD trip attack is considered an AoO for these counting purposes, so Carl would not be able to take advantage of the second AoO provided by Paul's tribesman.

 

[Water Bob]

BACKHAND

The Backhand is an alternative to two-weapon fighting when a character is using his fists or a punch and kick combination. As with those attacks, a Full Action is required.

To perform a backhand, a character must make a successful punch attack. On it's success, the character is allowed a second punch attack, with a +1 attack bonus, against the opponent. The rub is that the character is -1 AC until his next action (for a round) after performing the backhand.

Thus, a character brawling with another has several options. He can attempt two punches, using the two-weapon combat rule. He can attempt a punch and a kick, also using the two-weapon combat rule (remember that kicks do more damage at 1d4 but leave the character at -1 AC for a round, until his next action). The character can perform two kicks, and double the AC penalty for a round.

Or, now, the character can attempt one punch, and if successful, perform the backhand, getting +1 on the attack but suffering -1 AC for the round, until the character's next action.

 

[Water Bob]

There are a couple of other brawling techniques a character can use, but these are not GUSTUD attacks and, as such, are subject to the normal Attack of Opportunity usually allowed the target of an Unarmed Attack.

These attacks can be used in place of a normal Unarmed Attack, but all of them have benefits if used while grappling.



Elbow - this delivers the same damage as a punch but only suffers a -2 penalty to attack to deliver lethal damage if attempted during a grapple. The standard -4 attack penalty applies when used in melee against an armed foe.




Knee - this delivers the same damage as a kick (1d4) but only suffers a -2 penalty to attack when attempting to deliver lethal damage. The standard -4 attack penalty applies when used in melee against an armed foe.



Head-butt - this delivers 1d2 damage but has a Critical Threat range of 19-20/x3. On a critical hit, in addition to the tripled damage, the target must make a WIL save (DC 10 + half attacker's base attack bonus + STR mod) or be dazed for one round. If used while grappeling, the -4 attack penalty to deliver lethal damage does not apply. The character delivering the head-butt suffers 1 point of like damage (non-lethal or lethal, depending on the damage suffered by the target) for every successful hit. Critical hits always do lethal damage. The standard -4 attack penalty applies when used in melee against an armed foe, and the defender is allowed the standard Attack of Opportunity before the head butt is attempted.





NOTE that these rules, along with those ealier in the thread, may get your players interested in using brass knuckles or wearing gauntlets--or even adding spikes or other accessories to their armor. As a gauntlet can change the type of damage delivered from a punch from non-lethal to lethal, different pieces of armor or armor enhancements can change damage and other aspects of these brawling attack styles.