non-PHB core classes which ones are good? which ones are bad?

[Gundark]

I'm talking about the non-phb core classes. Generally I don't include them in my game unless there is something innovative that they bring. If I could recreate the class with one of the existing classes I nix it. For example the warmage from the miniature handbook, I could basically just recreate this by using a sorcerer that has a bunch of evocation spells and armour proficiency feats. The gun-mage (from privateer press) is an example of an innovative class as it brings something different to the game, the Hexer(?) from the complete warrior is another example of a good core class that is different. What ones do you guys think are good and which ones suck?

 

[Nightfall]

Not to fond of the Marshall myself.

 

[Dark Jezter]

The Scout class from the Warcraft RPG is a good core class. It could basically be described as a cross between a ranger and a rogue, with a little bit of druid thrown in for flavor. It's balanced nicely and could easily be imported into almost any campaign setting.

 

[Gundark]

The Scout class from the Warcraft RPG is a good core class. It could basically be described as a cross between a ranger and a rogue, with a little bit of druid thrown in for flavor. It's balanced nicely and could easily be imported into almost any campaign setting.

does the scout replace the ranger?

 

[Dark Jezter]

does the scout replace the ranger?

Sort of. In the Warcraft RPG, the fighter, barbarian, rogue, sorcerer, and wizard classes are the only core classes from the PHB that are suitable for the setting. Rangers, paladins, and druids are prestige classes rather than core classes. The healer core class replaces the cleric, and can later be multiclassed into a druid, shaman, or priest. Monks and bards have been removed entirely, since they are not appropriate to the setting.

So, to sum it up, in the Warcraft RPG you can start out as barbarian, fighter, healer, rogue, scout, sorcerer, or wizard. Later on, you will likely want to multiclass into one of the many prestige classes the setting offers.

 

[Darklone]

Kalamars Players Guide (OMG, I'm a Nightfall pimp clone ):
- Basiran Dancer: Bard variant war dancer.
- Brigand: Fighter Rogue Outlaw variant.
- Gladiator: One on one specialist.
- Infiltrator: Rogue Ranger variant with burglar and spy tendency.
- Shaman: Druid variant with more specialised wildshape and totem animal.
- Spellsinger: Sorcerer variant with more style.

Have used all of them, like all of them. Most are a little bit weaker than the comparable core classes.

There will be splatbooks (like Stealth&Style for the Dancer and the Infiltrator) for all of them.

 

[Psion]

I am generally dubious about new classes. I am usually more tolerant of those that facilitate new magic systems or tweak the taste a little for specific campaign styles, but some classes just seem like they are there just to make new classes. AFIAC, the strength of skills, feats, and multiclassing in 3e is to minimize the need for the class menagarie of the sort that popped up in the Dragon Mag in 1e.

Good new core classes:

• Psion and Psychic Warrior, naturally.
• Green Ronin's Shaman (I'll add witch, though I don't use it myself.)
• The Priest from AEG's good (good variant if you want a less combatant priest.)
• Green Ronin's Holy Warrior/Unholy Warrior. Adds a degree of lattitude to the idea of holy warriors/paladins, and is a much better take on the topic that the "different alignment paladins" seen in various places (such as Dragon mag and AEG's Good).
• OA Samurai - WotC did it right the first time. This class cannot be fairly made by multiclassing, and thus has a reason to exist.
• Sorta kinda the Beyond Monks Martial Artist. It overlaps with the monk too much for my taste, but I think that this is the monk's fault for being too specific for a core class.
• Sorta kinda the hexblade. Well enough written, but they don't give it enough reason to exist.
• AU Unfettered. (Most AU classes, really, but this is the only one that inspired me to import it.)
• AEG (Rokugan/SA) Courtier. A social class that has some variety/flexibility to it.
• Mongoose's Chaos Mage - Another nice take on magic. Needs a little work (note: I have yet to get the quint book, so said work might already be done), but a fine concept.

Bad Classes (IMO -- remember, my opionion WAS solicited)

• All Kalamar PG classes. See no reason most of these shouldn't be feat chains or multiclass combos.
• Monte's Sorcerer. His changes reduce the sorcerer to a blast mage. Now I recognize that many players play them that way. But not all (there is a very non-blast mage sorcerer in my game right now) and definitely not all NPCs.
• All miniatures handbook classes. Healer does not stack up to other PC classes. The rest do not support the RPG really, but are sort of diabloesque mass combat classes.
• CW Samurai. WotC did it wrong the second time. This class is just a feat chain for the fighter and has no reason to exist.
• CW Swashbuckler. Sort of ickily tinkered together. What's up with that fort and reflex save? I think they should have dispensed with their reservations about spinning off from the fighter and just made the reflex save better.
• Innumerable others - There are lots of borderline or worse products out there, and lots of unjustified or just plain ill-designed classes to go with them. Sorcery & Steam, Hamlet of Thumble, Encyclopedia of Demons & Devils II, Green Races, Complete Monstrous Fighters Compendium, Complete Monstrous Wizard's Compedium (oh, the agony!), &c.

 

[Felon]

The Minis Handbook basic classes were a pleasant surprise for a book that I was ready to write off as irrelevant. In particular, I found it intriguing that Charisma is a prime ability score for all four classes. They all receive a thumbs-up, in general. Specifically:

• Favored Soul--This class is balanced and serves a purpose in allowing divine spells to be cast spontaneously. As a DM, I have used them once or twice and found them to make for effective villains. As a player, I might find ia favored soul a bit bland. They could've been given a more imaginative ability than energy resistance, and giving them wings at 17th level is pointless.
• Healer--Balanced and serves a role. As the text itself states, many clerics wind up doing other things in battle besides healing (indeed, many hold the front line better than some fighters). For that matter, even clerics dedicated to healing often find their spell allotment spread too thin ("darn, I took remove curse instead of remove disease today!"). It does require a certain kind of player to take on a character with no aggressive capabilities, but those players are out there. They make dandy good-guy NPC's, as they sometimes need the help of the PC's, even when they're of a higher level, and in turn they prove very useful allies.
• Marshal--Looks very interesting, but I can't speak as to how balanced it is. I suspect they offer an excellent substitute for a bard's song-and-dance routines, which are inappropriate for certain types of adventuring. One of my players is going to create one next session, and I think the party's going to be surprised at how handy they are to have around. Marshals also have a nice skill list, and are likely to wind up as the party's "face-man". I've got concerns that the ability to grant an extra move action may be unbalancing though. Like the healer, there is also the issue of them being passive characters on the battlefield. It'll be interesting to add a few marshal levels to a head villain and see how that affects combat.
• Warmage--I play one in a DL campaign, and as far as I can tell this class does not even have a pretense of being balanced in comparison to the sorcerer or wizard. Wears armor, uses shields, gets a d6 hit die, and casts spontaneously from a list longer than a sorcerer is likely to have--oh, and it gains metamagic feats at higher levels. So, if it's not balanced compared to other arcane casters, why should any DM allow it? Well, a lot of players think the other arcane caster suck on ice, and my gaming groups certainly wind up short on fireballs for wont of someone who'll volunteer to be tissue-paper guy.

The Complete Warrior basic classes were a much bigger disappointment:

• Hexblade--It's suitable for a campaign where paladins aren't an appropriate choice for a PC class, like the mercenary campaign that I run. Thus, I allow the hexblade as an alternative choice for those who might want to take up the "supernatural warrior" role, but I seriously doubt there'll be any takers. For one thing, no details are provided on what the heck a hexblade is exactly, and the authors were really kidding themselves to think such details are unnecessary. Secondly, hexblades make LOUSY substitutes for paladins. While they too gain their Charisma modifier as a bonus to saving throws, it's only against saves versus spells or spell-like abilities. And while a paladin receives a mighty mount that can fight beside him and grows in power over time, the hexblade receives a semi-worthless familiar. Stupid. The hexblade also gains the "Mettle" ability, which works like Evasion but for Fort. and Will saves instead. Seems of dubious worth considering how those saves are usually of the all-or-nothing variety. On the whole, it's just a hodgepodge of mediocre features with nothing to draw someone in to playing one.
• Samurai--I agree with Psion here. The OA samurai captures the spirit of the "warrior-elite" archetype pretty well. This samurai is just an eclectic pool of bonus feats, fear-inducing powers, and kamakaze attacks. Whatever role they're supposed to serve in a party, I can't figure it out.
• Swashbuckler--This one's just dumb. While I used the words "hodgepodge" and "eclectic" to refer to the hexblade and samurai, this class is the epitome of the ill-conceived mishmash character class. It's like something out of one those bad "Power Class" booklets by Mongoose. How can you give a swashbuckler a poor Reflex save? OK, I can say one good thing about it; instead of trying to figure out some outre way to give out the class a good Armor Class while fighting unarmored, the designers just decided to make them proficient with light armor and be done with it. One smart move amongst many lame ones isn't much to crow about though.

It's kind of annoying actually. The base classes in the minis book were about the only thing that I could get any use out of, while out of CW the base classes were pretty much the only things I deemed worthless.

 

[Zarrock God of Evil]

Personally I find the Mystic core class from Dragonlance to be widely applicable - it works well in any setting and provides the game with an innate divine caster useful in many campaigns.

-Zarrock

 

[Darklone]

The Minis Handbook basic classes were a pleasant surprise for a book that I was ready to write off as irrelevant. In particular, I found it intriguing that Charisma is a prime ability score for all four classes. They all receive a thumbs-up, in general. Specifically:

• Favored Soul--This class is balanced and serves a purpose in allowing divine spells to be cast spontaneously. As a DM, I have used them once or twice and found them to make for effective villains. As a player, I might find it a bit bland. They could've been given a more imaginative ability than energy resistance, and giving them wings at 17th level is pointless.

Uhm... 12th level wings, IIRC. And natural flying works wonderfully in AMFs... see a certain storyhour for beholder use. And balanced? Balanced with a cleric (the utterly most broken class in the game, thank you).

Psion: YMMV... I don't wanna start the typical Kalamar flame war here... but if you say these classes can be substituted by feat chains, I disagree. Well. I agree. But then you can say the same about most other classes, right ?