D&D 5E Non-Proficient Saves

Monsters do indeed use the proficiency system. See the DM Basic pdf; a monster's proficiency bonus is based on CR, not on HD.

Personally, unless and until the disparity between proficient saves and nonproficient saves proves to be an actual issue in play, I wouldn't mess with it. That's one of those foundational bits of the game, and before I mess with it, I'd want to actually see it come up as an issue in play over a long-term campaign, not just in theory.
 

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For the level range involved in OP default is fine.

For a long running higher level home game, I'd do half-prof to Non-prof saves. The stat disparities can cover the 'need a weakness' aspect.
 

These two things are related.

You've played 30% of the game. The 30% of the game in which save scaling is least problematic.

There are 14 levels you haven't played, and the OP specifically talks about higher level saves as the issue.

Here's the thing. If you have a system with a large difference between strong and weak saves, you create a system where some characters usually succeed and some characters usually fail. That's a problem if that doesn't match your expectation of what high-level heroes SHOULD do.

So, define your expectation. Then see if the system matches it. If it doesn't, then change it.

Most of the arguments in these forums happen because people define their expectations implicitly. Lay out what you expect to see happen, right up front, instead.
 

These two things are related.

You've played 30% of the game. The 30% of the game in which save scaling is least problematic.

There are 14 levels you haven't played, and the OP specifically talks about higher level saves as the issue.

Yeah but all the bonus scale as well. The bards help dice get bigger, clerics have access to better spells, paladins aura gets batter and more frequent.

I think the OP is missing some variables in his analysis.
 

Sounds like you don't want to have any weaknesses...

Worry not, you can just use all of your ability score improvements as resilient feats!!! - problem solved!!!
 

Worry not, you can just use all of your ability score improvements as resilient feats!!! - problem solved!!!

This is a solid use of two feats for sure (for the ones you miss of DEX, CON, and WIS). Also, make friends with a pretty level 6 Paladin.
 



Here's the thing. If you have a system with a large difference between strong and weak saves, you create a system where some characters usually succeed and some characters usually fail. That's a problem if that doesn't match your expectation of what high-level heroes SHOULD do.

So, define your expectation. Then see if the system matches it. If it doesn't, then change it.

Most of the arguments in these forums happen because people define their expectations implicitly. Lay out what you expect to see happen, right up front, instead.

Fine. I thought it was manifest from the math, but I guess not.

My expectation is that a single AoE spell or poisoness gas or whatever in the first round should not take out 3 PCs for half to all of an encounter out of a party of 5 at high level. Especially if the PCs taken out are the spell casters, so there are few ways to break them out of the enchantment, poison, stun, hold, whatever. This is a TPK waiting to happen because the 2 remaining PCs do not typically have the resources to both fight foes and help their allies. Encounters are balanced for 5 PCs in this example by a DM, not 2.

This should not happen at any level, let alone high levels when the PCs really should all be heroes.

Taking a couple of PCs out for a couple of rounds, fine. But when the DC is 20 and most 18th level PCs have a +0 to +2 save, that's ludicrous and bad design. IMO.

It's more ludcrous that at high level, even moderate saves of DC 15 to 17 might be required every other encounter.

Yes, the PCs could have magic items. Yes, there are some PC abilities that might boost abilities. The fact remains, these factors, if relevant to the situation, may or may not be there, especially since Concentration is on a one spell at a time basis.


And to tell you the truth, just due to how dice can go cold or hot, I would suspect that an ambushing set of monsters that are considered medium to hard, but not deadly, could easily TPK a mid-level party partially due to the weak save factor. Given the nature of this, it might be a miracle for any group to survive past level 12 or so unless the DM takes steps to protect the PCs.

In 6 months, people will be talking about this like they did for weak saves in 4E. The difference is that there were usually 1 out of 3 weak saves in 4E and there are 4 out of 6 weak saves here (2 out of 3 major, and 2 out of three minor). The odds do not look good. Eventually, I expect an errata or a splat book will have ways to mitigate it. Not quite sure why the designers did not see this coming and if they did see it coming, wow. :erm:
 

Yeah but all the bonus scale as well. The bards help dice get bigger, clerics have access to better spells, paladins aura gets batter and more frequent.

I think the OP is missing some variables in his analysis.

Feel free to post a dozen of those variables where some significant number will probably be available to most parties.

It's one thing to say that they will be there. It's another for every party to have them, or be able to use them. The bard can not hand out his help dice if he is stunned. The cleric cannot hand out buffs if he is incapacitated. There has to be quite a few options that can partially reset the board by most of the PCs in order to make these types of solutions work. Giving advantage to saves, handing out additional saves, yes these can mitigate a single attack. But will they mitigate more than one attack?

But, please give some examples.
 

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