Non-random D&D Miniatures

[Mark CMG]

I'm just saying that this has been asked for a lot since DDM was first announced. If it is both easy and profitable, my personal opinion is that they're pretty crazy not to have at least looked at the feasability, if not done it, by now. That's the one thing that makes me scratch my head at this. I'm not against it, and if it is doable, then they should do it. But why has it taken so long?

I believe the common answer is that they were worried in the past that any potential infringement on the DDM schema might disrupt its profitability, whereas now either they have had a change of heart on that score or new minds are in charge of the future direction and they are more open to the possibilties. Either way, the change of direction appears to be upon us.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Then why do a good many of those stores simply open them open up and sell them on EBay themselves?

The space a single unpackaged orc takes up is less than a blister of an orc. You also dont need to worry about ordering individual product codes (just more of the current set).

 

[Mark CMG]

Yes. Most of the people buying them are using them for RPG use. The skirmish side is very marginal.

Is that so? I would have thought the market divided between those who collect collectibles and, to a lesser extent, those who use them either for gaming with miniatures and/or RPGs. I'm guessing the majority of figures don't actually get used in tabletop RPG games. Of course, that is just my impression based on what information I have gathered from online and also information I have gathered from frequenting a very, very large and busy game store.

ANyone who buys boosters to get a *specific* figure is either ignorant of the secondary market, a tin-foil hat wearing technophobe, or has more dollars than sense.

Okay.

Are stores willing to carry another entire wall of stuff they have to order individually, keep inventory of, etc?

I would guess that some are. Otherwise there is no accounting for the success of Privateer Press or Confrontation or any number of other lines that have popped up over time. But that's neither here nor there since we are really only talking about ten pegs of minis on a wall, not the huge space consideration you are heralding.

 

[Vocenoctum]

Basically the issues blocking it are mainly:

1. Your brick & mortar being hurt by shelf space limitations.
2. Profitablity of these singles, not everyone wants 'orcs'

I think a third part is Production. It's not just that they need to make an Orc set, they have to decide whether the Orc set will sell more than the Aboleth set. That's why I personally don't want such sets (aside from not having a problem finding numbers of commons for cheap already). Every pack of Orcs is a not-pack of something else. Orcs are already represented in the sets (as well as kobolds and such), while Kitiara on Huge Skie is not. We're not likely to see a Hydra or Aboleth very often, and I'd rather have one of those than 20 Orcs.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Basically the issues blocking it are mainly:

1. Your brick & mortar being hurt by shelf space limitations.
2. Profitablity of these singles, not everyone wants 'orcs'


I would love to goto WOTC's site say I want 20 Orcs, 40 Goblins, 2 Beholders, etc and make a single purchase. But I can't do that.

Large companies arent interested in processing small potatoes orders. Shipping to individuals is a pita, they'd rather have stores for that. Plus WOTC wants to keep brick and mortars in business, since they feel it helps bring new players into the game. Cutting them out of the loop isnt part of their stated plan.

Instead I get the Giant Toads (which I do like considering T1 was my first D&D experience), Kobold Fighter, and Royal Guard. (Was just pulling names off the top of my head.) When I buy a box, I expect at least one of the eight to be somewhat useable in a standard game.

Heres the crux of the issue. You dont consider a kobold fighter useful? Many do. Royal guard? The frog I'll give ya as oddball, but what about those who want large frogs? So, we cut out the figures that arent useful in 100% of the campaigns, and we get... nothing? A range of 10 figures with an orc, an elf, a goblin, a skeleton, and nothing more obscure? Heck, the beholder, one of the most iconic monsters (and more valuable of the recent DDM pieces) probably sees little table time, so maybe its out as well. You certainly dont need MANY of them, so its not in WOTC's interest to make compared to a zombie figure. This right there would eliminate the large range of figures that DDM's current model supports.

But I still want that option without having to rely on my Ebay Bidding Skills to get what I want. The only time I used Ebay where it wasn't the BUY IT NOW option was on an old GI Joe Torpedo to torment my little brother with (long story of classic brotherly torments). I found it on the internet at a slightly high price and so I set my bid at below what with shippping it would cost me, took me 5 different auctions as I kept getting sniped. So I don't want to use an Ebay system, I want a set price for something and I'll buy it. If it raises the overall costs I'm fine with that.

The links which people keep tossing up are all buy it now stores. We know you dont want to screw around with bid wars. I dont either, its a waste of my time. My last experience was getting a Major Matt Mason figure for my brother in law for Christmas, a truly irritating experience that took several months, so I totally agree in that regard. But there are plenty of options for Buy it Nows, and those are really where the deals are at anyways (Auggies, Ahubb, Avengers Rule, etc).

 

[Vocenoctum]

Not when the results aren't correct.

I think everyone has adequately shown that you can find orcs for cheap, though perhaps not the specific orcs you're looking for. It would seem then, that your complaint should be that they haven't recently produced the orc you are seeking, rather than saying that orcs are unavailable.

When I needed Lizardmen to assault Blackwall Keep, I got Lizardfolk Rogues because they were cheap. I didn't have lizardfolk with spears, but somehow I struggled on through such adversity.


I don't want to see a lot of reprinting, since it would seem to clog the channels with old product and hurt the collectability, but new molds in new sets are fine. With non-random sets, you would get the consistent mold, but I doubt you'd run into long term viability of any one product, and so you'd have the same situation as current DDM. As stuff goes OOP, it would be harder to get.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Is that so? I would have thought the market divided between those who collect collectibles and, to a lesser extent, those who use them either for gaming with miniatures and/or RPGs. I'm guessing the majority of figures don't actually get used in tabletop RPG games. Of course, that is just my impression based on what information I have gathered from online and also information I have gathered from frequenting a very, very large and busy game store.

Its been said several times by WOTC employees at cons. The organized skirmish game accounts for a lower % of booster sales than people who use them for RPG. Not sure how they get their info, but I'll trust them on it. If you look at the trend in secondary market prices, this is largely supported. Monsters generally command much higher prices than humanoids, even if the humanoids have a higher value in the skirmish scene.

I would guess that some are. Otherwise there is no accounting for the success of Privateer Press or Confrontation or any number of other lines that have popped up over time. But that's neither here nor there since we are really only talking about ten pegs of minis on a wall, not the huge space consideration you are heralding.

Yeah, the warmachine section at my store is a lot smaller than the GW or Reaper (which are spawling messes that are impossible to find anything). Consider how many figures come out each year for DDM (180) and the space it would require to maintain that much. I'd guess if it did go to non-random model, the line would shrink considerably.

I think what they are feeling out is a VERY limited non-random packs. Like 3-4 per year, with a tight focus on mass appeal. Drizzt is as good as sold the moment they announced it. I'd guess they woudl expect similar results from anything else produced. I wouldnt expect the way most minis reach stores to change any time soon.

 

[Mark CMG]

Its been said several times by WOTC employees at cons. The organized skirmish game accounts for a lower % of booster sales than people who use them for RPG. Not sure how they get their info, but I'll trust them on it.

While not necessarily counter to what I have seen, my own experience has collectors outweighing either group.

If you look at the trend in secondary market prices, this is largely supported. Monsters generally command much higher prices than humanoids, even if the humanoids have a higher value in the skirmish scene.

This could as easily be explained as having to do with there being a ton of minis that can be used for PCS/NPCs and a limited number of monster figs (both from DDM and elsewise on both counts).

I think what they are feeling out is a VERY limited non-random packs. Like 3-4 per year, with a tight focus on mass appeal.

This is my thinking and preference, as well. I'm not a fan of the idea that all monsters should be available as singles. I agree that would probably sink the ship. I'm of a mind that a handful of what some call cannon fodder creatures could be put out as new sculpts, cheaply made and quickly painted, like the lesser commons from any set are (orcs, goblins, skeletons, zombies, etc.). They can cut down on the costs by making the packaing as cheap as possible and don't even need cards.

 

[Mark CMG]

I don't want to see a lot of reprinting, since it (. . .)

I don't want reprinting.

 

[Pbartender]

Here's something insteresting to note...

In the mid 1990's, with the re-release of the Star Wars original trilogy, Galoob began producing a line of Star Wars Micro Machine toys. These included an "Action Fleet" line of plastic starship models, and a "figure collection" of non-posable painted plastic figures much like the current DDM figures, but using a much smaller scale.

These figures were sold by Galoob from as early as the summer of 1994, until at least 1999, if not later, with the release of Episode I and its related toys.

The character packs typically included nine painted plastic miniatures in four different poses, and sold for about $10 a pack.

On top of this, Galoob was bought out by Hasbro in 1998. Which means at least a part of these figures were built and distibuted under Hasbro's watch.

Now, granted, these minis appealled to the entire Star Wars fandom, but at the same time required the extra licencing fees from Lucas. But... from 1991 until 1999 there was also a Military line of Micro Machines with similarly sized and painted soldier figurines. Those figures were far more generic than the Star Wars figures, and had a much longer run.

In other words...

Inexpensive, non-random, pre-painted plastic miniatures not only can be done profitably, but have been done profitably... And they were done profitably by a company that Habsro bought out (just before cancelling both of those lines, mind you).

I think that it's not so much that it can't be done profitably, rather than that the current random minis business strategy is simply that much more profitable that they don't want to do it anymore.

I understand that... but that doesn't mean I have to like it.