Non-Spellcasting Ranger?

[Meeki]

Looking at the silly Two Weapon Defense feats and others...

The ranger would have to choose most of these extra feats from a very suboptimal list (and some couldn't be chosen at all, Endurance?). While the fighter enjoys WS and Melee Weapon Mastery and other nice things. So I don't agree that this would make the ranger too strong in regard to melee... TWF is suboptimal by it's own.

About the Favored Enemy... the ranger is supposed to be better than a fighter against his Favored enemies. What's the problem there?

How is +1 shield bonus while duel wielding a silly feat? Endurance I can agree it is a sort of worthless feat but its a feat none the less and is used more often in my campaign than some other feats.
TWF is not suboptimal IMO. You sacrifice a bit of +hit (2) to gain more attacks. Any duel wielding fighter would have the exact same feats with the exception of WS and GWF. Not only that but if you duel wield with throwing weapons, especially if they are returning wounding or something of the like, combined with quick draw you can toss out alot of freaking attacks that are ranged, allowing the ranger to focus on dex, take the TWF path, and pick up some archery ones with his normal feats. TWF for a ranger my be suboptimal but it isn't suppose to measure up to a fighter duel wielding. Also, rangers do not need to meet the prereqs for any feats they acquire in their combat styles. They do however need to meet them for the bonus feats, but weapon finesse will take care of the issue of hitting and power attack will help bump the damage.

The fighter would do only 2 points more per attack with normal weapon spec. Their to hit would probably be pretty close, and if the ranger is using light weapons he might pick up weapon finesse. Since the ranger doesn't have to focus on mental stats anymore he can have the same stats as a fighter, heavy physical. 13 int will cover most of any style feats he needs.

Combine the rangers close damage with all the other class abilities, especially hide in plain site, evasion, and the awesome ranger skill list the ranger becomes to powerful.

 

[WhatGravitas]

Combine the rangers close damage with all the other class abilities, especially hide in plain site, evasion, and the awesome ranger skill list the ranger becomes to powerful.

Stop comparing it to the fighter. Compare it to the barbarian - he still has an average of 2 hp more per level, can rage and rack-up a bunch of damage with Power Attack and his higher raging strength, plus the barbarian has also a good skill set and fast movement.

 

[FireLance]

How is +1 shield bonus while duel wielding a silly feat?

Because you can eventually get a higher shield bonus to AC without sacrificing too much damage with Improved Shield Bash and a spiked shield with the bashing property.

TWF is not suboptimal IMO.

TWF is fine. Improved Two-weapon Fighting is less useful. Greater Two-weapon Fighting is even less useful. A ranger shouldn't be compared to a two-weapon fighter, but to one that is more optimally built.

They do however need to meet them for the bonus feats, but weapon finesse will take care of the issue of hitting and power attack will help bump the damage.

Most weapons that can be used with finesse are light weapons, which do not benefit from Power Attack.

Combine the rangers close damage with all the other class abilities, especially hide in plain site, evasion, and the awesome ranger skill list the ranger becomes to powerful.

As mentioned, the ranger's ability to keep up with the fighter in terms of damage is highly situational. A fighter with Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Specialization (+4) already out-damages the ranger with respect to any non-improved favored enemy (+2), even assuming equal ability scores and weapons. The ranger can take Improved Favored Enemy from Complete Warrior to gain back the edge (+5), but the fighter can take Weapon Mastery from PH2 to go back into the lead (+6) and pull ahead even further with respect to non-favored enemies. Where the ranger does have an advantage is that the damage bonus is not weapon dependent, so he can maintain it even as he switches from melee to ranged attacks, or vice-versa.

Now, while it is possible to continue the discussion along these lines, analyzing how the fighter's armor proficiencies and better hit dice compare to the ranger's better saving throws, skill points, class skill list and other special abilities, such a discussion would miss the point.

The real issue is not how the ranger compares with the fighter, because in a standard D&D game, they each have their respective strengths, niches and roles to play, even if there is a ranger and a fighter in the same party. The real issue is how a ranger with no spells and four bonus feats compares to a ranger with three or so spells per day from 1st to 4th level.

 

[Meeki]

I compare it to a fighter because of the idea of bonus feats and the ability to diversify in feats, unlike a barbarian and the fact that a barbarian duel wielding would expend so many feats its silly and a fighter can do it easily, that and the ranger now becomes more like a pure melee/ranged fighter than a nature dwelling tracker with minor magical powers. I did forget that you cannot power attack with weapon finesse, this would lower the rangers damage since he has to have such a high dex for the duel wielding feats allowing the fighter to easily surpass him. However, in the campaign I dm currently even the third off hand attack is hitting with regularity. The character wielding the daggers is a fighter with a few levels of rogue, lvl 14, a ranger would have nearly the same to hit, just missing GWF. D&D is about buffing and when everyone is buffed to the hilt hitting becomes alot easier.

Also a +1 spiked light shield with the bashing property with improved shield bash would do D8+1 piercing damage and grant 2 AC while bashing. +3 spiked light shield with bashing would also do D8+1 piercing damage a grant 4 AC. Bashing only allows the shield to act as a +1 weapon when shield bashing. You could use a +2 flaming handaxe for D6+2 slashing damage +d6 fire damage, avg damage of 8.5 damage, compared to 5.5. Only a difference of 3 but when you are higher level and able to increase your weapons even further the damage gap will be wide. All depends if you want more damage with your offhand or more armor. Plus as the modified ranger you can take two weapon defense as a bonus feat.

Truthfully I think the ranger is a weak class and the modified ranger is very powerful. Even with the wand argument the ranger is still pretty weak. I guess it depends what books you use to build your characters. I dont use PHII but might allow some feats from it, doesn't sound like weapon mastery would be one of them though. I use a modified variant of weapon spec that allows you to have weapon spec for each weapon you have a focus in for one feat. In my campaign most you can get is GWS for +4 damage.

Comparing it to the standard ranger is tough since it all depends on the spell selection available to the ranger. I would drop spell casting in a heartbeat for the listed 4 extra feats if I was using just the Ph spells. While tree stride and freedom of movement are excellent spells the ranger is only 1/2 caster level and when he could get lvl 4 spells he would be a lvl 7 caster, assuming he has a high enough wisdom modifier to have a bonus spell. 70 mins of freedom of movement is nice and easily dispelled, but I would rather have another feat from the list.

Maybe the current ranger could be tweaked a bit, whenever I see them played they seem to struggle in most situations and shine while tracking or hiding/scouting, but again depends on how you build your ranger. Its strange that they lack so many knowledges, how is a ranger suppose to find its favored enemy anyways if they dont know anything about their habitats.

Anyways, everyone has a valid point and we aren't going to see eye to eye about this. Only way to find out is to play the variant someday and see how it holds up.