Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
Not going to 4e
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Brother MacLaren" data-source="post: 3922364" data-attributes="member: 15999"><p>No, I'm not a troll. I've been around here for years and have gone into these points on numerous other threads. Let me explain.</p><p></p><p>1) Basic/Expert D&D had several design elements that I loved. "Wizards start off weak, but can eventually become very powerful." "Magic has its uses, but magic is limited, where Strength can be used as often as needed." A wizard who starts weak and can run out of spells is a class I'd love to play again. It makes him fundamentally a frail human novice with some abilities that he's just learning to master. The idea that he can run out makes him seem more human. Now, the warlock can never run out... it's a good class, it's a neat concept, and he's suitably creepy/alienish, but it's not how I see a novice wizard. </p><p></p><p>2) In Basic/Expert, you got HP at all levels; saves and attack rolls improved at some levels, not all, and there were no skills. So the complaining over "dead levels where all we get are HP, BAB, saves, and skills" sounds like whining to me. Also, in 3E, plotting out your character build became much more a component of the game than it had before. Focusing more attention on what abilities you get at each level is, I think, contributing to this trend. I just don't see "Dead levels" as a valid complaint. The game should, in my mind, be about cool stories and about clever tactics to overcome challenges, not about flashy abilities and character builds.</p><p></p><p>3) Every alignment and every god ALREADY has a holy warrior. It's called the cleric. Paladins were representative of two things: first, an attempt to model a certain heroic archetype such as your Galahads; and second, an idea that the forces of evil were numerous and the forces of good were less numerous but had an elite champion. The code is what makes the paladin class worth having; otherwise, just use a Ftr/Clr. I'd rather see the class removed than see it corrupted.</p><p></p><p>4) Playing a support character can be a great deal of fun. It's a team endeavor, not a game to see whose star can shine the brightest. Sometimes the cleric's best action is to get the fighter back on his feet, and the bard's Inspire Courage is often the difference between winning and losing. I have no problem with that. It's a team effort. And some of my favorite moments in games have been sitting back and watching other PCs handle everything. The players are my friends, the characters are my PC's allies, and it happened to be immensely entertaining to watch the bard make his one-man stand against the death knight and liches, or to watch the arcane trickster do some body-hopping infiltration-slaughter on her own. 4E seems to be based on the idea, "If you aren't doing something cool, the game isn't fun."</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Brother MacLaren, post: 3922364, member: 15999"] No, I'm not a troll. I've been around here for years and have gone into these points on numerous other threads. Let me explain. 1) Basic/Expert D&D had several design elements that I loved. "Wizards start off weak, but can eventually become very powerful." "Magic has its uses, but magic is limited, where Strength can be used as often as needed." A wizard who starts weak and can run out of spells is a class I'd love to play again. It makes him fundamentally a frail human novice with some abilities that he's just learning to master. The idea that he can run out makes him seem more human. Now, the warlock can never run out... it's a good class, it's a neat concept, and he's suitably creepy/alienish, but it's not how I see a novice wizard. 2) In Basic/Expert, you got HP at all levels; saves and attack rolls improved at some levels, not all, and there were no skills. So the complaining over "dead levels where all we get are HP, BAB, saves, and skills" sounds like whining to me. Also, in 3E, plotting out your character build became much more a component of the game than it had before. Focusing more attention on what abilities you get at each level is, I think, contributing to this trend. I just don't see "Dead levels" as a valid complaint. The game should, in my mind, be about cool stories and about clever tactics to overcome challenges, not about flashy abilities and character builds. 3) Every alignment and every god ALREADY has a holy warrior. It's called the cleric. Paladins were representative of two things: first, an attempt to model a certain heroic archetype such as your Galahads; and second, an idea that the forces of evil were numerous and the forces of good were less numerous but had an elite champion. The code is what makes the paladin class worth having; otherwise, just use a Ftr/Clr. I'd rather see the class removed than see it corrupted. 4) Playing a support character can be a great deal of fun. It's a team endeavor, not a game to see whose star can shine the brightest. Sometimes the cleric's best action is to get the fighter back on his feet, and the bard's Inspire Courage is often the difference between winning and losing. I have no problem with that. It's a team effort. And some of my favorite moments in games have been sitting back and watching other PCs handle everything. The players are my friends, the characters are my PC's allies, and it happened to be immensely entertaining to watch the bard make his one-man stand against the death knight and liches, or to watch the arcane trickster do some body-hopping infiltration-slaughter on her own. 4E seems to be based on the idea, "If you aren't doing something cool, the game isn't fun." [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
Not going to 4e
Top