D&D 5E Notes from the underground: a few opening thoughts about D&D Next or 5e.

[Lanefan]

I dont understand the feel of there being a hp ceiling for sleep and charm etc. (These spells only fully effect creatures with less than 10 hp). I will be interested to see how this plays out. BUt I dont understand how somebody you have just bashed the crap out of of is going to be more open to you magical suggestions! Id ont see how that makes sense.

That clause needs to be clarified as it is open to two quite different interpretations:

1. Spell only affects creatures with maximum h.p. 9 or less
2. Spell only affects creatures currently at 9 h.p. or less regardless what their maximum might be

Personally, I'd interpret it as option 1; which would gut charm so badly as to make it nigh-useless but quite well sticks to how sleep used to work (4d4 HD worth of creatures, 4th-level*/4 HD* and higher immune).

* - or whatever, I don't recall the exact immunity cut-off right now and am too lazy to go look it up.

Lan-"having 85 h.p. makes me charm-proof? Boo-yah!"-efan

 

[mlund]

We're not talking about sophisticated torture procedures here.

No. We're talking about magic here.

We're talking about (potentially, it doesn't matter how you reduce their HP) being locked in mortal combat with them, until they're nearly dead (but still fighting as hard as ever), and then sleep and charm person become super effective. Maybe it's a close fight and you're almost dead too when you cast the spell, it doesn't matter.

Actually, going by the definitions given for Hit Points an enemy that's been beaten down from 20 HP or more to below 10 HP has a significant injury and is at the end of his or her rope in terms of avoiding a finishing blow. In other words, they are in desperate straights and significantly weakened.

Seems very plausible that arcane forces could overwhelm someone via enchantment in that condition just as easily as a cantrip bolt or a random swing of a mace or club could slay him outright.

I would rather that sleep and charm person are most effective on someone who isn't paying that much attention to you. Say a guard who is nearly dozing off to himself, who barely notices you intoning some magical syllables under your breath, or a bored shopkeeper who has no reason to be put on their guard by how supernaturally charming your words are in casual conversation.

People who aren't paying attention are going to have disadvantage on their save. A bored shopkeeper is going to have less than 10 HP. The guy who is already half asleep is probably going to get special dispensation from the DM.

And remember, it you go hitting the enchanted character the enchantment is going to be broken - so they are only willing to believe you are their friend or continue snoozing so long as you don't hurt them again.

- Marty Lund

 

[TerraDave]

That clause needs to be clarified as it is open to two quite different interpretations:

1. Spell only affects creatures with maximum h.p. 9 or less
2. Spell only affects creatures currently at 9 h.p. or less regardless what their maximum might be

Personally, I'd interpret it as option 1; ...

I also thought in terms of max hp.

I think they need some scalling or some other balance, maybe, sort of like the original, it affects up to 30hp worth, starting with the lowest.

 

[Dausuul]

I also thought in terms of max hp.

I think they need some scalling or some other balance, maybe, sort of like the original, it affects up to 30hp worth, starting with the lowest.

Based on the article where Mearls first brought up the mechanic, it's current hp. If you drop the ogre to 9, you can finish it off with a sleep spell. Dunno why you would, but you could.

 

[TerraDave]

Something just feels off with sleep as a "finishing" spell, though I guess it could work in play.

 

[Dausuul]

Something just feels off with sleep as a "finishing" spell, though I guess it could work in play.

Well, I don't think it's intended to be used that way. Mostly, you'd use it on kobolds and goblins and critters like that, to knock a bunch of them flat right at the start. But now and then you could get a bonus.

For instance, if the goblins have a bugbear chieftain, you might start off combat with the rogue dropping behind the chieftain to backstab him. Then you, the wizard, cast sleep to take out the goblins. The rogue gets lucky on his backstab damage and puts the chieftain down far enough that sleep gets him, too.

All that said, WotC needs to be careful about these "it just feels off" things. Put enough of those together, and you get 4E. Don't get too clever about using old mechanics in innovative ways.

 

[Lanefan]

I'm more concerned about what it does to charm rather than sleep.

I can't charm a dumb town guard who happens to have 12 h.p.?
I can't charm pretty much anyone over 1st level (well, 2nd level for wizard types)?
I can't charm my fellow party members???

High h.p. as a charm defense makes no sense whatsoever.

Lanefan

 

[mlund]

I'm more concerned about what it does to charm rather than sleep.

I can't charm a dumb town guard who happens to have 12 h.p.?
I can't charm pretty much anyone over 1st level (well, 2nd level for wizard types)?
I can't charm my fellow party members???

Perhaps when you get a copy of the play test documents and actually read the Charm Person spell your fears will be put to rest.

In the meantime complaining about mechanics you haven't read seems less than productive.

- Marty Lund

 

[TerraDave]

I think with charm person in its current version, it has to be humaniod, and does not get a save with low hp, though I am not sure what the point of the threshold is.

Otherwise, it works pretty much normally, though it does favor higher charisma charecters, but that sort of makes sense.