NPC Classes?

[Ovinnik]

First off, hello everyone. My first post, though I've been lurking for quite some time... Seemed like the best place to find 4e news and info (much better than Wizards).

Now then, I've been pondering NPC classes. All the PC classes in 4e are very 'epically heroic', designed to do great things with style and pure Awesome. I've seen complaints about how PCs won't be able to fit in a more 'normal' role, such as a regular old soldier, thief, etc. Maybe NPC classes, if they're done in a similar way to 3.X's NPC classes, could allow more 'mundane' powered characters?

But on thinking about it more, I've come to the conclusion that NPC classes are likely a thing of the past, due to statblock NPCs and monsters. But how then would you do something like a plain old human soldier (and I'm talking about the profession, not classification)? Templates, perhaps? Your standard normal soldier/thief/merchant/etc. uses this statblock, modified by race? This is what I'm expecting, and it's fitting with the 'simpler is better' design theme.

Also, does anyone think it's likely that WotC may eventually put out a 'low-powered heroes' splatbook (a later PHB, maybe), with classes and tips for people wanting to run more down-to-earth games without fantastically powered heroes? If WotC doesn't, I expect another published will, so if they were smart I'd think they'd try and cash in on the low-powered fan market.

So, thoughts?

 

[mach1.9pants]

I like the idea of 'heroic' and 'non-heroic' classes but I don't think it is happening.
I think we are going back to the old fashioned 'human' listing in the MM with various NPC roles (merchant, soldier, etc, etc) listed. But that is just what I think, I dunno if there is anything solid. i cannot find anything solid in the ENW list

 

[Fallen Seraph]

Yeah I don't think anything definite is set in stone. But I think we will probably have stat-blocked human fighter, human merchant, etc.

I would LOVE to see WoTC do a low-powered supplement.

 

[mach1.9pants]

I would LOVE to see WoTC do a low-powered supplement.

Same, But this is an easy 3rd party PDF style of sup- a deep set of rules for NPC classes, trade, crafting etc for those that want it. I don't see WotC doing anything like it, 4E is just not going in that direction.

 

[LightPhoenix]

But on thinking about it more, I've come to the conclusion that NPC classes are likely a thing of the past, due to statblock NPCs and monsters. But how then would you do something like a plain old human soldier (and I'm talking about the profession, not classification)? Templates, perhaps? Your standard normal soldier/thief/merchant/etc. uses this statblock, modified by race? This is what I'm expecting, and it's fitting with the 'simpler is better' design theme.

Also, does anyone think it's likely that WotC may eventually put out a 'low-powered heroes' splatbook (a later PHB, maybe), with classes and tips for people wanting to run more down-to-earth games without fantastically powered heroes? If WotC doesn't, I expect another published will, so if they were smart I'd think they'd try and cash in on the low-powered fan market.

I pretty much came to the same conclusion. If you really need a commoner, you don't need to know all sorts of information about them. We might see some bandits or soldiers in the MM, but I don't think they'll be classed.

That said, a low-powered sourcebook would rock.

 

[Greenfaun]

It's actually a little more complicated than that there aren't NPC classes. There are new monster roles that are practically classes, but those deal strictly with combat roles. Classes for non-combat NPC's haven't been talked about, and some people have said that DM's will have more freedom to just make NPCs instead of having to use classes to give them the stats they want.

First, the "NPC classes" that we have seen in the Previews apply to ALL monsters, not just intelligent/humanoid foes. The city guards might be "Level 3 Soldiers" but the necromancer's sword-swinging skeletons would be too, just with the undead descriptor instead of human traits.

The monster classes we've seen so far are

Brute
Soldier
Ambusher
Skirmisher
Artillery
Mastermind

though some of those might be descriptions rather than actual mechanical monster roles, it's a little hard to tell from the writing of some of the Design and Development columns and playtest reports.

This combines with the different power categories as well, which are:
Minion
Standard
Elite
Solo

For instance, it looks like for any particular level, you're supposed to fight monsters the same level as you, but your party of 4 level 5 PCs might fight 8 level 5 minions, 4 level 5 standard monsters, 2 level 5 Elite monsters, or 1 level 5 solo monster, and each of those would be a level 5 encounter. See how that goes?

There's a lot we still don't know, like how PC classes fit in on the power categories above. I'm personally also wondering whether monsters will be locked to one sort of class/role/thingy, or if it would be possible to have, say, skirmisher wolves and brute wolves.

Another thing we don't know much about yet is how they're handling non-combat sorts of issues. Will there still be silly things like having to give an NPC courtier 7 levels of aristocrat so he can have ten ranks of diplomacy, or can you just make a human with ten ranks of diplomacy because it fits the story? I'm very curious about what they decided.

On a related note, apparently wizards will have some of their "utility" spells in the form of rituals, the things specifically mentioned were teleportation and item creation IIRC. It's possible that there will be NPC mages who can do these utility rituals but not combat magic, but I'm just speculating, and I have no idea whether there will be an NPC class for it or if DM's can just say "the local mage's guild can enchant your weapons if you have enough gold." Personally, I'm hoping for the latter.

 

[moritheil]

Welcome!

It seems that rather than just remove NPC classes, they've elected to make 4E more "gameist."

 

[Irda Ranger]

First off, hello everyone. My first post, though I've been lurking for quite some time... Seemed like the best place to find 4e news and info (much better than Wizards).

Welcome! You'll certainly get no arguments from me that EN World is superior to the Wizards site in every way!

But on thinking about it more, I've come to the conclusion that NPC classes are likely a thing of the past, due to statblock NPCs and monsters.

Agreed.

But how then would you do something like a plain old human soldier (and I'm talking about the profession, not classification)? Templates, perhaps?

I'm not sure what you mean about Profession vs. Classification. If you want to know his HP, AC, attack bonus, etc. I expect that'll be handled by the MM Table for "Soldiers: Levels 1 to 30." If you mean how many ranks in Craft (Knitting) he has, um, just give him as many as you want / as needed for your quest plot. The idea that you have to level up as a Soldier to get better at Crafts and Professions totally unrelated to soldiering is pretty dumb, if you think about it.

Also, does anyone think it's likely that WotC may eventually put out a 'low-powered heroes' splatbook (a later PHB, maybe), with classes and tips for people wanting to run more down-to-earth games without fantastically powered heroes?

No, I don't think it's likely. I also don't think it's necessary. Just slow down level advancement and cap level progression at 10 (or whatever level you're comfortable with).

 

[Irda Ranger]

Same, But this is an easy 3rd party PDF style of sup- a deep set of rules for NPC classes, trade, crafting etc for those that want it. I don't see WotC doing anything like it, 4E is just not going in that direction.

I hope this isn't a dumb question, but why would you ever need something like this? You only need rules for the parts of the game that have to be adjudicated by the DM, and you don't need adjudication for how good a local carpenter is. The DM can just tell you "He's competent" or "He's an artist; the best woodworker in the Kingdom even." I mean, is someone at the table actually going to say "Yeah? Prove it! Show me his ranks in Craft (Carpentry). How'd he advance that far without killing any Orcs?"

I realize you prefaced your comment with the phrase "for those who want it", but I'm really having a hard time understanding why anyone would want this. Whether your character lives or dies fighting Orcs is pretty important, but whether the local brewer can make Elven wine just seems like a "plot element", not something you need to roll for.

 

[Irda Ranger]

It seems that rather than just remove NPC classes, they've elected to make 4E more "gameist."

I've been around these boards for a while (9 years, help me) and I'm not even sure what you mean by this. I doubt the OP (who has just posted for the first time) understands either.

If you're suggesting that the removal of NPC classes makes 4E more like a computer game, I'd rephrase that as "the designers of 4E have elected to give you the rules you need, and to not burden you with rules for stuff that just doesn't need rules." It's up the DM how good someone is at masonry, and forcing the DM to stat out 7 levels of Expert or Commoner just to make a simple NPC Mason makes the game a lot less fun for the DM.