NPC Warrior -> PC Fighter; NPC Expert -> PC Professional ??

[Nyeshet]

Development Notes: ((The only difference between the Warrior and the Fighter is 11 feats and a single boost to HD (oh, and the Fighter has Craft as a skill, but the Warrior not having that may be a typo, so I have not counted it). So, I wondered, what would I end up with it I did the same to the Expert? Perhaps a PC worthy version of the class? In exchange for mandating almost half of the class skills available to the Expert I rose one of the poor saves to a medium save - although those not using the Medium save can, of course, return it to a Poor save. It's not a major change, although I think having one save as a Medium rather than two poor and one good helps balance the concept of the class. I added a means of gaining new class skills later, but such would be at the cost of the feats. I think, considering the combat poor nature of the class, that the overall class is balanced - although perhaps a bit below par for typical adventure worthy classes. I could be quite wrong, however, so I decided to post here to see what others thought of it.))

Professional
HD: d8
BAB: Medium
Prof: Simple Wpns, Light Armor, No Shields
Saves: 1 Good, 1 Medium, 1 Poor (all chosen at first level to fit the concept)
Skill Pts: 6 + Int
Skills: Craft, Knowledge (Local), Profession, Speak Language, 6 others chosen at first level to fit the concept

Specials
01 ???
02 Bonus Feat or Class Skill
03
04 Bonus Feat or Class Skill
05
06 Bonus Feat or Class Skill
07
08 Bonus Feat or Class Skill
09
10 Bonus Feat or Class Skill
11
12 Bonus Feat or Class Skill
13
14 Bonus Feat or Class Skill
15
16 Bonus Feat or Class Skill
17
18 Bonus Feat or Class Skill
19
20 Bonus Feat or Class Skill

??? Not Sure What to Put Here!

Development Notes: ((I wanted to put something here, but I did not want to use the bonus feat / bonus class skill option at first level - mostly to prevent level dipping. In the end I likely will put something there. Perhaps I will make it a choice of several options: Bardic Lore, Bardic Knack, Trapfinding, or some other option. I'll have to think about it a bit more.))

Bonus Feat: Every even level the Professional can choose a bonus feat so long as the feat involves a benefit to skills or saves. Improve Initiative, although involving neither skills nor saves, is also allowed as a Professional Bonus feat.

Development Notes: ((This is meant to cover every +2/+2 skill feat, Skill Focus, all the +2 to a save feats, and any odd feats out there that may grant, say, +4 vs Fear (a highly specific Will save), +2 to Init / +1 to a save (some FR feat if I recall correctly), etc. Listing them is futile, as new feats are forever being made.))

Multiclassed Professionals who have taken at least one feat from their other class(es) (such as Fighter, Wizard, Psion, Psychic Warrior, etc) may choose instead to take their even level bonus feat from this additional list of allowable feats. Thus, a Professional / Wizard could - after having taken their first Wizard bonus feat at 5th level - choose for their next Professional bonus feat a feat from the Wizard's list of allowable bonus feats instead.

Development Notes: ((I do not see this as all that unbalancing, as the Fighter will lose BAB and eventually progressive attacks to take this route - and would have gained the feats anyway at the same rate of progression had they taken Fighter levels instead, and the caster will lose caster levels, spells known, etc. Note that Rogue specials do not count as a feat list, as the bonus feat option for rogues, as I recall, allows the selection of any feat for which the Rogue qualifies - far more than what I intend. This is intended to ease multiclassing penalties somewhat. A Fighter / Professional, for instance, might represent an officer focused more upon strategy, diplomacy, etc than combat (gaining skills but losing BAB and progressive attacks if taken for more than a few levels), and a Wizard / Professional might be highly skilled in meta-magic and item creation at the expense of casting levels. Note that a Wizard 14 / Professional 6 only gains one extra feat (if only wizard feats are chosen for the bonus feats), and as this 'openning' of the feat listing does not occur until after they have taken their first feat from their other class's bonus feat list, then only a Wizard 5 / Professional 2 would gain first benefit from this - presuming the second Professional level is taken after the fifth Wizard level, of course.))

Bonus Class Skill (Ex): A Professional can choose to gain a new Professional class skill instead of choosing a Professional Bonus Feat. So a Professional 2 could choose either a bonus feat or an eleventh class skill, for example.

Development Notes: ((One of the Expert's notable traits compared to other classes is their ability to choose their class skills. I wanted to re-emphasise a little of that - especially as I had taken some of it away. However, to gain additional class skills they have to sacrifice their Professional Bonus Feats. So they may have 20 class skills at level 20 or they may have only their original 4 (pre-determined) and 6 (chosen at first level) and ten bonus feats - but they cannot have both. It is an option some will choose but not others. The openness also means that later multiclassing is again somewhat reduced in full penalty, as the Professional / X can simply choose a class skill from X rather than a bonus feat at their next even Professional level - thus gaining that skill as a class skill for both classes and allowing continuous, less restricted, growth in the skill should they continue to gain levels in each class.))

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So, what do you all think? Is mine effort to raise the Expert to a PC worthy class one of futility? Have I gone too far with some of my ideas or not far enough? I admit the class is combat poor, but note that I made certain the bonus feats could be applied towards save enhancing feats as well as purely skill enhancing feats. I hope this aids in the overall survivability of the class. Granting either a Bardic Lore equivalent (for Know (local) checks, perhaps also for checks for another Knowledge that applies well to their profession) or Bardic Knack (for a MacGuyver-ish feel, perhaps) at first level would aid them notably, but I am uncertain as to which to grant - if either.

 

[Cam Banks]

Take a look at the Master base class I wrote for the Dragonlance War of the Lance sourcebook (Sovereign Press). It's exactly what you're talking about - the PC version of the Expert. I designed it around the four "group" skills of Craft, Knowledge, Perform, and Profession, and borrowed the idea of talents (renamed "knacks") from d20 Modern. At 1st level you pick one of the four group skills to be your primary focus, which determines your class skills and access to knacks. At 7th level, you can choose a secondary focus, adding more class skills and knacks.

It's worked very well for us so far. It's popular as a multiclassing choice, and fits many concepts better than a rogue or fighter would.

Cheers,
Cam

 

[DarkKestral]

I believe the Expert equivalent is actually the rogue or possibly the bard. Likewise, the Adept is the cleric analogue, and Eberron's magewrights the wizard/sorceror analogues. Aristocrat might be a bard or rogue... (I'm not exactly sure)

The expert's ability to choose any 10 class skills as class skills is simply due to the need to have crafters and non-PC classed NPCs with abilities the PCs might need.

 

[Nyaricus]

Take a look at the Master base class I wrote for the Dragonlance War of the Lance sourcebook (Sovereign Press). It's exactly what you're talking about - the PC version of the Expert. I designed it around the four "group" skills of Craft, Knowledge, Perform, and Profession, and borrowed the idea of talents (renamed "knacks") from d20 Modern. At 1st level you pick one of the four group skills to be your primary focus, which determines your class skills and access to knacks. At 7th level, you can choose a secondary focus, adding more class skills and knacks.

It's worked very well for us so far. It's popular as a multiclassing choice, and fits many concepts better than a rogue or fighter would.

Cheers,
Cam

Cam, you seem to be the type of game designer I really like (along the lines of Mike Mearls). You fill gaps in the game which only careful overveiw will find.

While I don't play in DL (though I'm a fan of the books, to be sure ) I think a bunch of DL stuff looks like it's going to be purchased by me [btw, do you have a list of products anywhere?)=] very soon, since you put all your goodies in those books

Who knows, maybe I'll be running a game in DL sometime in the next 3 or 4 years

cheers,
--N

 

[Aus_Snow]

There is an excellent class that was (I think) developed along a very similar line of thinking: the Akashic from AU and AE. It has something of a mystical element to it, but given that D&D and AU/AE are high fantasy, this is probably not a terrible thing in itself.

If you want skills and flexibility unmatched, that's where to look.

 

[Cam Banks]

Cam, you seem to be the type of game designer I really like (along the lines of Mike Mearls). You fill gaps in the game which only careful overveiw will find.

Thanks! Being compared to mainstream folks like Mike is high praise, so I appreciate it.

While I don't play in DL (though I'm a fan of the books, to be sure ) I think a bunch of DL stuff looks like it's going to be purchased by me [btw, do you have a list of products anywhere?)=] very soon, since you put all your goodies in those books--N

Complete product list for 3.5 Dragonlance may be found here. I've worked on all of these books with the exception of the Map Pouches, which my good friend and skillful cartographer Sean "Kipper Snifferdoo" Macdonald designed with his Photoshop Fu.

I should note that I do enjoy the akashic also, from AE, but in my Dragonlance campaign it served the role of a two-fisted adventuring Aesthetic from the Great Library of Palanthas, who had a mystical connection to the Tobril (Gilean's book of knowledge). I didn't want such a strong supernatural feeling to the master, however, so it's much closer to the rogue/fighter/expert than it is to the bard or akashic. Master performers also make great non-spellcasting bards in eras where bardic magic isn't present (such as the War of the Lance).

Cheers,
Cam

 

[el-remmen]

AGoT has the Artisan - which is basically the PC class version of the Expert. You might want to look at that if you can.

Also, I am moving this to House Rules.

 

[Nyaricus]

Thanks! Being compared to mainstream folks like Mike is high praise, so I appreciate it.

Well, I'm just one person, but everytime I see you post here, I learn something interesting about what you are doing or have done. I like that line of thought, and try to do the same in my campaigns (my homebrew Ascension currently has essentually all original base classes).

Complete product list for 3.5 Dragonlance may be found here. I've worked on all of these books with the exception of the Map Pouches, which my good friend and skillful cartographer Sean "Kipper Snifferdoo" Macdonald designed with his Photoshop Fu.

I should note that I do enjoy the akashic also, from AE, but in my Dragonlance campaign it served the role of a two-fisted adventuring Aesthetic from the Great Library of Palanthas, who had a mystical connection to the Tobril (Gilean's book of knowledge). I didn't want such a strong supernatural feeling to the master, however, so it's much closer to the rogue/fighter/expert than it is to the bard or akashic. Master performers also make great non-spellcasting bards in eras where bardic magic isn't present (such as the War of the Lance).

Cheers,
Cam

Thanks for the link; I suppose I will also have to take a look at AE and WotL when I get the chance

cheers,
--N