[NYT] The hunger for fantasy

Pielorinho said:
And then we could look at Ann McCaffrey. At Octavia Butler. At Tanith Lee. At Ursula Le Guin. These authors aren't minor figures in fantasy lit: they're front and center, some of the best-known authors out there. His article blithely ignores their importance.


Because they're important only to a relatively small number of people. Honestly, even the best-known authors you cite are virtually unknown even to the vast majority of those who are genre fans. The average Star Wars novel outsells every one of these authors by orders of magnitude. That's not denying their importance; it's simply reality. Their work has almost no impact upon what the article's author is examining.
 

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ColonelHardisson said:
The author of the cited article was looking at the genre from without, rather than from within. The writer sees the genre and its fans from a distance, and provides an analysis based on what is seen. We may not like it, and we may dispute it based on what are really, when you boil it down, inconsequential details, but it's accurate overall.
<snip>
I think, though, that the article is pointing out that fantasy, as a genre, is becoming more and more accepted by the general population, and tries to figure out why. It's more of a sociological examination of the general public than of fantasy fans, so an in-depth overview of the genre would have been wasted space in the article.

Well said.

The premise seems to be that the mainstream public has come to find fantasy not so nerdy after all.
 

So Colonel, how do you respond to my points about television sf/fantasy? SUrely you don't think that those shows are unknown even to the vast majority of fans?

And the authors I mentioned -- especially Anne McCaffrey -- are among the bestselling authors in the genre: hardly unknown to people inside fandom. Had he limited himself to commenting on Hollywood blockbuster, he would have been justified in ignoring, say, CS Lewis. However, when you start talking about Harry POtter as typifying fantasy, you gotta address Lewis, Snicket, Dahl, and the others.

At any rate, I don't think that someone who's unfamiliar with a body of work really has much business writing an essay about the body of work. His "addressing of the genre from without" looks to me a lot like "making ill-informed statements based off of his prejudices."

He would've had a much stronger point had he limited himself to Hollywood movies. He didn't, and so his point is misleading and imprecise.

Daniel
 

Well, I can only base my judgement on what I've seen quoted here: I'm not giving the NYT my name for yet another mailing list, quite honestly.


That said, I think Pielorhino makes some very valid points. For one thing, the author paints with a broad brush, but ignores a large body of material so that he can make his point. Are all of his points, unflattering or no, incorrect? I don't think so, but they smack of 'well, the nerds won.' The implication being that anything that is fantasy is something we'll all have to learn to live with.

I might posit that Star Wars hardly can be classified as something that only appeals to a very small cross-section of fantasy geeks. Quite the contrary, in fact. Does Andre Norton? Probably, but let's be honest: we're talking about escapist fiction, for the most part, not Henry Miller. In many cases, sex is either not important or not appropriate to the story.

Colonel, I think you'd agree that in Tolkein's case, (never mind the issue of his style or the story itself) much of the mythos from which he drew rarely went into lavish detail about such relationships. In a poem like Beowulf, we're not lavished with a lengthy sex scene...we're given a line or two, at best. The same would apply for tales from the Bible (say, Samson and Delilah) or any number of historical mythological texts (of which the Greek myths spring to mind, and Zeus conquests in particular).

That said, if one is going to point out, as the author does, that mainstream fantasy, particuarly Hollywood's interpetations therein, avoids this material, that he's being overly general. I certainly think he probably doesn't group Anne Rice in with the fantasy genre, for example. I tend to think that intentional myopia is more the cause than anything else. He sees what he wants to see, essentially.

I would also disagree with you concerning authors like, say McCafferey, who were popular enough in middle-school over 20 years ago for me, and were well read by more than just the geeks. The author also seems to ignore the huge female readership that fantasy has, in his quick desire to describe a large group. You mention the sales of Star Trek books, and rightfully so. I would guess that the author would ignore them, because he doesn't classify them as fantasy, and that he Star Trek (like Star Wars) has become so mainstream in it's day, that no one views it the way the once did.

The author thinks that's because they've lost some sort of fight, I guess. I don't think he's really being derogative...I just wish he'd make an effort to try and be more precise. It's like reading the review of the Scooby-Doo film that starts out by saying "I've never ever understood the appeal of Scooby-Doo for 30 years.". Regardless of whether or not he liked the film (and I know I will, if my kids make me see it), it shows the angle he's thinking along. Perhaps this author needed such a statement himself.
 

Pielorinho said:

At any rate, I don't think that someone who's unfamiliar with a body of work really has much business writing an essay about the body of work. His "addressing of the genre from without" looks to me a lot like "making ill-informed statements based off of his prejudices."
So only someone who is immersed in a subject or culture can write about it? This seems somewhat myopic. I guess Animal Farm and 1984 were "ill-informed statements based off" George Orwell's prejudices against communism?
 

EOL said:
I guess Animal Farm and 1984 were "ill-informed statements based off" George Orwell's prejudices against communism?

Orwell was a socialist who was writing about all types of totalitarianism, not just socialism. ;)
 

Pielorinho said:
So Colonel, how do you respond to my points about television sf/fantasy? SUrely you don't think that those shows are unknown even to the vast majority of fans?

How many of those shows are high in the ratings? (I don't know.)
 


As someone who writes for a newspaper, I can tell you that most of the time the writer is writing from the outside looking in. It's very difficult at any newspaper to find someone to assign a story to who already is familiar with the subject matter.

And the author's use of only mentioning the fantasy movies and books which supported his argument -- that's something learned in any basic writing class covering opinion writing. You start with a topic, make your points, cite your supporting evidence, them sum up. You often don't have the space available within the publication to cover the subject fully. And if you did cover it fully, it wouldn't be an opinion piece, it would just be a feature story about the subject. The whole point of any opinion piece is to express an opinion and argue it. That was the purpose of this piece. It's like debate -- you can disagree with his opinion, but don't expect him to make your arguments for you.
 

A trio of points:

--Xarlen, it's not necessarily important whether the sf/fantasy shows i mentioned were high in ratings, so much as it's important that they're the highest in ratings of sf/fantasy shows. Several of the shows I mentioned were primetime shows on network television; we're not talking about Tales from the Crypt here. The point is that major mass-market f/sf stories contain strong female leads and intense sexual themes, contrary to AO Scott's claims.

--EOL, I don't believe that only a f/sf fan is qualified to write about the genre. I do believe that if you want to write a survey of the state of s/sf fiction, you gotta do your research. AO Scott might despise the genre (and, from reading his reviews for the past year or two on the New York Times, I suspect he does), but if he did the necessary research to write intelligently, I wouldn't be complaining. It's his ignorance, not his bias, that bothers me.

--Shadowdancer, I learned the exact opposite what you learned about arguing. If you want to make a point, you should anticipate and answer the most obvious objections against it. Mr. Scott had a huge word count, a lot of which he squandered on rhapsodizing about the teenage losers who make up sf's audience; had he cut two paragraphs of that sneering lyricism and replaced it with a short discussion of countervailing trends in the genre (e.g., Buffy, McCaffrey, Like Water for Chocolate), he would have greatly strengthened his essay, by admitting to nuance. As it is, his thesis is transparently simplistic to anyone with a working knowledge of f/sf.

If folks are interested in some intelligent analysis of f/sf, I encourage you to track down "The Trillion Year Spree", a book by Brian Aldiss that offers a wonderful, opinionated history of science fiction; and an essay by Le Guin called something like "Here there be Dragons." Le Guin also has a cool essay on her Web site called "On Despising Genres; check it out!

Daniel
 

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