$o$ or not?

[Ipissimus]

The only thing really missing is the Primal power source from the start. That was a bad move. The Druid class not in PHB1 is a big turn off for me.

Yup, I agree, this is definitely a downer. The loss of the Druid from initial release I feel most keenly, the loss of the Barbarian not so much but still.

However, if I can get the details of all the Primal character classes through DDI, I will be much happier then being forced to buy a book for it. And they'll get my subscription money without having to pay printing costs. Heck, if they preview the Druid through Dragon Magazine, I might even get them earlier than the books get produced!

 

[hossrex]

I bought the 3.0 core books, costing me a total of $240AUS.

~snip~

3 core rulebooks. The gift set is approx. $66US from Amazon, with an exchange rate of .9 currently plus shipping of about $30AUS, I'll say $100AUS for the sake of convenience.

You paid $240 for all three core 3.5 books... and you're only expecting to pay $100 (after crazy expensive shipping) for the 4E books?

You're numbers are really really fuzzy, all over the place.

Not to mention that you bought all sorts of "unnecessary" books during the 3.5 days, and you're for some reason thinking you wont be doing that in the 4e environment.

Its the equivalent of saying "The Xbox360 is SO much better then the first Xbox! I spent thousands of dollars on it, for the system, and a few games a year! Now that this new Xbox360 is out, all I have to do is buy the system and one game, since that one game will assuredly be so awesome that I will never need another book, EVER again. Microsoft isn't greedy, its saving me thousands of dollars!"

Well... no. You're still going to buy those extra DnD books (and the core books are probably going to cost more then you think also).

If you think that insider crap is going to let you have free access to all the rules without any sort of caveat or drawback... you're crazy. Then you go to talk about getting discounts on PDFs... but you factor none of that into your figures.

I hope you enjoy 4e. I know I will. It seems like fun, even if I do have concerns. But if you think you're going to get out of this edition a penny cheaper then you did 3e, you're crazy.

Specifically one of the concerns that the DnD creators had in mind in creating 4e was that people tended to buy one set of core books for their groups, and then just a couple more books. Ever. This is a problem from a business perspective.

I wouldn't expect they had an epic fail when it came to that concern. Think about it. Would they be better served by telling you they're planning on milking your every penny you're worth, or would they be better served by telling you this edition will be much, much cheaper, so you should get invested into it as soon as possible.

 

[Moon-Lancer]

Yup, I agree, this is definitely a downer. The loss of the Druid from initial release I feel most keenly, the loss of the Barbarian not so much but still.

However, if I can get the details of all the Primal character classes through DDI, I will be much happier then being forced to buy a book for it. And they'll get my subscription money without having to pay printing costs. Heck, if they preview the Druid through Dragon Magazine, I might even get them earlier than the books get produced!

I fully agree. I think druids have rooted themselves as an iconic figure in d&d and i still am still shocked that they are not in the 4e core books. So to make up for it, im playing lots and lots of druids lately. (this is coming from the guy who thought druids were the girl version of rangers ;p)

oh sorry about the slightly snaky comment about digital minies. I think its crazy to even consider getting them. I hope that not very many people pay the money for them so wizards includes them in the subscription. I'm probably just going to stick with the core books, and get a subscription every so often so i can check out some of the rules.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

While I of course would have liked to see the Druid, Barbarian, Monk and Bard... Well only Monk if it is not-setting specific (but that is a personal issue ). I view it this way.

They seem to be including everything you need to run a PC in the PHB, so that is a TON of stuff. I like this method since it makes it much easier/less expensive to make a character then. Also it means there is a much greater concentration and effort on these fewer classes.

As such when the other classes are released they will be of similar quality and have everything included.

I prefer this method because I rather wait and get a excellent complete class, then get it right away and get a incomplete class that needs to be improved through supplements like in 3.5.

 

[helium3]

Total: $1406 approx.

What? I mean, WHAT?!? Someone pinch me, 'cause I swear I'm dreamin'!!!

There's a phrase I've heard before that seems to apply in this situation.

"You get what you pay for."

 

[Ipissimus]

You paid $240 for all three core 3.5 books... and you're only expecting to pay $100 (after crazy expensive shipping) for the 4E books?

Break down the numbers. I live in Australia. In order to get a book down here from the US, they either have to ship it, which takes 6 weeks, or airmail it. Shipping's cheaper but it's still a big wad of cash. Once it gets here, a shop has to buy it and make a profit, so he adds on his cut. The Government tacks on 10% Goods and Services Tax on top of that, it all adds up.

I'll admit that the exchange rate has gone up from a woeful .6 against the US to a heavenly .9, but shipping, storefront and tax still don't make up for that. The reason the books are so cheap from Amazon for me is that less people are taking a cut of my money.

Not to mention that you bought all sorts of "unnecessary" books during the 3.5 days, and you're for some reason thinking you wont be doing that in the 4e environment.

According to what they're saying about DDI now, they will be giving DDI subscribers full access to all the rules sets, updated with content from the expantion books.

Its the equivalent of saying "The Xbox360 is SO much better then the first Xbox! I spent thousands of dollars on it, for the system, and a few games a year! Now that this new Xbox360 is out, all I have to do is buy the system and one game, since that one game will assuredly be so awesome that I will never need another book, EVER again. Microsoft isn't greedy, its saving me thousands of dollars!"

Noooooo. The new X-Box is better than the old X-Box because it has better processing power. I'm willing to upgrade to the X-Box 360 because it gives me a better gaming experience. I'm not talking about gaming experience here, just the price and when I crunch the numbers, this is what I get.

Well... no. You're still going to buy those extra DnD books (and the core books are probably going to cost more then you think also).

Ok, you're the second person who's said I'm going to buy the new books. Why? I've still not heard anyone give one coherent reason that I should buy any books at all if DDI gives me all the rules for the price of my subscription.

If you think that insider crap is going to let you have free access to all the rules without any sort of caveat or drawback... you're crazy. Then you go to talk about getting discounts on PDFs... but you factor none of that into your figures.

Yes, I'm crazy. I like to be optimistic. Evidently, that makes me bugnuts. And no, I don't put the pdfs into my figures... BECAUSE I DON"T NEED THEM! According to the information we're getting, DDI will give me full access to all the rule sets! Go read some of the DnD Experience blogs, dude.

I hope you enjoy 4e. I know I will. It seems like fun, even if I do have concerns. But if you think you're going to get out of this edition a penny cheaper then you did 3e, you're crazy.

Specifically one of the concerns that the DnD creators had in mind in creating 4e was that people tended to buy one set of core books for their groups, and then just a couple more books. Ever. This is a problem from a business perspective.

I wouldn't expect they had an epic fail when it came to that concern. Think about it. Would they be better served by telling you they're planning on milking your every penny you're worth, or would they be better served by telling you this edition will be much, much cheaper, so you should get invested into it as soon as possible.

Ah, ok, so they could be lying. If they are, they're going to look like the supreme asses of the universe after these latest announcements. Now, I'm not saying I'm going to hop in without considering the deal, nor am I going to stay in DDI if what I find isn't what they said they'd give me. There's a word for doing that, what was it... oh, that's right, illegal.

Also, please remember, we're also talking about the company that gave away the SRD FOR FREE. One of the reasons I never bought the 3.5 books was that I could get most of the rules changes without paying a cent. They knew what they were doing back then: technically, it's in their best interests to encourage the game's proliferation rather than stifle it through backstabbing their own market base.

Piracy and book-sharing are here to stay. The only way you're ever going to police that is by turning democracy into a facist totalitarian reigime. But people who do pirate or book-share really do it for the simple reason that they wouldn't buy the book anyway, for various reasons. Make the rules CHEAPER or give them some sort of access and you'll get more people on board. More people you get on board, the more money you make... basic economics, dude. Sell many units cheaply rather than less units at a higher price.

 

[Kaisoku]

It can cost the end user less while still producing same levels of profit for the company. It all depends on the cost involved in producing.


Creating a physical copy of a book costs money. So does distributing (shipping costs, individual store mark ups, etc), as well as taxes and levies (for the end user). WotC makes a set amount of money selling a book... but still only a portion of what it costs the end user.

On the other hand, providing rules online costs WotC bandwidth and salary for a website maintenance/update team. This would be drastically cheaper than the above scenario for the end user.
Also, making it a monthly fee gives a steady income of cash to WotC without having to rely on things like new book releases, or holiday book sales, and slumps in between, etc. Holidays will still have some factor (new people coming into the game because others bought them a subscription, etc), but a subscription base seems much more stable overall.


Since it costs WotC less to bring everything to the end user, it will cost less for the end user as well, without cutting into WotC profits. If anything, a more stable income of profits and depending on how much cheaper it is to maintain, they could come out ahead. Making it cheaper overall will help pull in more buyers too.


Now, that isn't to say this can't still be screwed up. Like was mentioned, you get what you pay for. It's not a hard copy, so you can't sit in a comfy chair and read the rules. If you don't have access to the internet (out at the cottage, etc) you may or may not be able to even access any of the information at all.

And if WotC decides to go for the greatest profit margin possible, they may slack off on maintaining the bandwidth/website maintenance. Imagine having to wait for weeks for the new rules because they haven't updated the website yet... or for a WoW reference, "Server full, you are position 152 in queue".. or just "504 - Gateway Timeout".


I would suspect that they'd be looking at giving this a bit more effort than the Character Generator they tried in 3e... but then again, who knows. They did hire some new folks for their website stuff, didn't they?

 

[Ipissimus]

Very good points, Kaisoku.

To clarify, I'm the first person to admit that DDI isn't going to be for everyone, for a variety of reasons. And yes, they could be lying (tho, I'd like to go with innocence until proven guilty) and yes, they could screw things up.

I do like what I'm hearing and what I'm working out on my own, however. I'd rather not miss out on a good thing by not giving them a chance.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I see one caveat for the DDI ruleset.
It seems to be tied to their character generator - this means you get most/all of the rules for powers, feats and classes, but nothing surrounding it. You probably can't browse through it like through a HTML or PDF version of the book.
You don't get the rulebook itself.

It is very similar to the 3.5 SRD - you get only the basic rules, not the flavour text or the artwork. If that worked for you in 3rd edition, it will probably work for you in 4th edition.

If it turns out not working so well for you, you'll buy more books and spend more money. Though the weak American Peso Dollar might help anyone outside the US. It certainly does for me. (I recently ordered the core rulebooks at a German online shop - 20 € per book sounds like a nice price too me... We'll see if I get the book in time, though. )

 

[Cthulhudrew]

According to what they're saying about DDI now, they will be giving DDI subscribers full access to all the rules sets, updated with content from the expantion books.

Is that how it's working now (such a flood of info, I may have missed it)? My understanding was that you could only access rules for books you had purchased, by entering a code from the book you bought into the system and "unlocking" it, essentially.

If they've changed it to give access just for subscribing, that is a tangible benefit to the DDI.

[EDIT- Just finished reading the interview with Rouse and Collins, and I see that you are correct about having complete access.]