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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Kobold Stew" data-source="post: 6494301" data-attributes="member: 23484">I think you're being selective. I've not played paladins in this edition, so I would defer to those that have, but:Except that it requires an action, which means giving up the initial attack. And it doesn't affect to hit, which means that you still need to pump strength or dex if you want to hit. The net gain may be a point or two of damage, at the expense often of the initial action in combat. Not quite a monster, but it does make your weapon count as magical if you don't have one already.There have been threads on this board complaining about how underwhelming the ability to turn undead is for clerics.This is hugely powerful against an enemy spell caster -- yes you have to get in close (they've shut down ranged paladins fairly well) but this is an excellent attack against high-magic foes. Abjure works on any creature type. Vow of Emnity is a bonus action against any creature type -- doesn't take an action, and gives yo an advantage to hit. It is easily the most powerful of these six abilities.  For me:Abjure Enemy > Nature's wrath > Abjure > Sacred Weapon > Unholy > FaithlessNow, I'm to saying I'm right-you're wrong, but I am saying that these are things about which reasonable people might disagree as for what they'd want for their characters. That's good. By my count, though, Vengeance is the clear winner of the three oaths.Agan, we can disagree:Aura of Warding gives resistance to all spell damage.  Devotion gives you an ability that is useful, but limited. Relentless Avenger is situationally specific and helps prevent BBEGs from running away. So for my money, Warding > Devotion > RelentlessUNLESS I was playing a character that wanted to pursue individuals, for whatever reason, to make them pay for what they've done. In which case, I'd probably be a Vengeance Paladin...So again, we disagree. The upper level abilities are going to come into play a lot less, since (let's face it) fewer campaigns are at that level.  But even still:Again, given that we disagree on the most powerful level-3 ability, your position does not surprise me, but I do think you are missing its strengths.Purity of Spirit is excellent; no doubt. Undying Sentinel gives you an ability shared by first-level half-orcs.Soul of Vengeance falls between these two: it means that IN ADDITION to giving you advantage,e you can use a reaction for an extra attack. It doesn't require an extra use of Channel Divinity, but it amps up what you can do, making the most powerful ability you have that is tied to your subclass even stronger. That seems pretty good to me.I'll be honest -- I put zero weight in level 20 abilities.  Most players will never see them in use, and even if the campaign goes that far, many will have multi classed, agains making the irrelevant. But let's consider them anyways: Nimbus and Champion both last for one minute, and so 1 combat per long rest. Avenging Angel lasts for an hour. Don't consider the metagame abilities; consider the ability to walk through an army of minions on your way to your level-appropriate opponent. For me:Angel > Elder Champion > Nimbus.It's clear we disagree -- that we value different things about the paladins. That's fine, of course. But I think you're being unduly harsh on the Vengeance Abilities, which seem to me perfectly fine.Hope this helps.</blockquote>

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