D&D 5E Oath of Vengeance (Paladin)

[Valador]

Is it just me, or does anyone else think that mechanically speaking, that this Oath is relatively weak compared to the other two oaths?

I don't want to type everything out, otherwise I'll be here all night, so I'll try to condense my comparisons and give my two cents. Please share your comments and thoughts on the subject with me or maybe open my eyes to something I'm not seeing.

3rd Level
(Devotion)
Sacred Weapon is a monster imo. +CHA to attack rolls for 1 minute... Couple this with the Great Weapon feat and just go to town on people...
Turn the Unholy is situational based on foes being fiends or undead, but undead are relatively common in most games I would think...

(Ancients)
Natures Wrath seems pretty lackluster to me... A single target within 10 feet restraint... STR or DEX save... Probably gonna be escaped in most situations.
Turn the Faithless is about on par with Turn the Unholy, it really depends on your campaign.

(Vengeance)
Adjure Enemy is nice because it can be used on any creature type. However the trade off is its only for one target.
Vow of Enmity is pretty nice, but only works on one creature...

IMO this round goes
Sacred Weapon > Vow of Enmity > Natures Wrath
Turn/ Unholy = Faithless > Abjure Enemy

7th Level
(Devotion)
Aura of Devotion, immunity to charm. Can't go wrong with an always active immunity that you can radiate to others. Mileage may vary based on if your enemies can even charm you.

(Ancients)
Aura of Warding, resistance to damage from spells. IMO this is pretty badass. All spell damage cut in half AND you can radiate the ability to others as well.

(Vengeance)
Relentless Avenger lets you move up to half your speed following an AoO you hit someone with, this movement doesn't provoke any AoO's of its own. I don't really know how to feel about this... I personally find it a little lackluster for a lot of different reasons I won't explain unless someone asks me to.

IMO this round goes
Aura of Warding > Aura of Devotion (because it's always active) > Relentless Avenger (situational and meh...)

15th Level
(Devotion)
Purity of Spirit's mileage may vary based off the amount of evil/good you are fighting, but I think a permanent aura to protect vs good/evil is pretty beefy.

(Ancients)
Undying Sentinel, I like the utility of this ability simply allowing you to stay in the fight longer. No aging drawbacks is a nice flavor touch.

(Vengeance)
Soul of Vengeance... ok this is probably where this Oath really chaps my ass... This skill sucks IMHO. The main reason is that it is solely reliant on you still having your Channel Divinity Vow of Enmity available. Every other Oath's abilities of this level are completely seperate from the channel and not reliant on it.

IMO this round goes
Purity of Spirit > Undying Sentinel >>>>>>>>>>>>> Soul of Vengeance

20th Level
(Devotion)
Holy Nimbus, 10 dmg per turn is pretty minor at this level, but its every enemy within range for every turn, so I like this. Plus if they're fiend or undead you get advantage on saves against their spells. Mileage may vary on the second part.

Elder Champion, HP regen is nice. However I typically don't see many paladins go heavy on the spell casting side of the house, especially now that our spells fuel our smites. Aside from the HP regen I find this rather meh...

Avenging Angel, this is neutral for me. Sure you can fly for 60 ft and give off a fear aura, but once you hit your enemy the fear is broken. I suppose it could be used to great effect if you meta game and your whole group focus fires every frightened enemy one after another. I see this more as an "oh we're being zerged" button to crowd disperse and give the group breathing room.


IMO this round goes
All about even I suppose...

Alright, so that's my two cents on this matter. Personally I was hoping to like the Vengeance Oath a lot more than I do, simlply because it opens a lot of role play options that we're hard to do given the strict alignment codes of the past. However, I can't help but feel this Oath is lackluster.

What does everyone else think?

 

[HEEGZ]

Vengeance is sort of a niche, single target killer, and one of the higher damaging options in the game. Not good against huge groups, but excellent against the BBEG. Or so I hear. I sacrificed mine at level three against a BBEG and we both sank to the bottom of the Moonsea in a death grip...

 

[Saeviomagy]

Soul of vengeance is pretty limited in when you can use it... but when you can it's really powerful. Very few things in the game let you turn your reaction into an extra attack that you can take with any regularity.

Note that avenging angel lasts for an hour, while the others last for a minute. The fear effects last for a minute after the target is first affected.

You also have to look through the granted spells to compare the specs, because they're very different to each other.

 

[Kobold Stew]

Is it just me, or does anyone else think that mechanically speaking, that this Oath is relatively weak compared to the other two oaths?

I think you're being selective.

I've not played paladins in this edition, so I would defer to those that have, but:

3rd Level
(Devotion)
Sacred Weapon is a monster imo. +CHA to attack rolls for 1 minute... Couple this with the Great Weapon feat and just go to town on people...

Except that it requires an action, which means giving up the initial attack. And it doesn't affect to hit, which means that you still need to pump strength or dex if you want to hit. The net gain may be a point or two of damage, at the expense often of the initial action in combat.

Not quite a monster, but it does make your weapon count as magical if you don't have one already.

Turn the Unholy is situational based on foes being fiends or undead, but undead are relatively common in most games I would think...

There have been threads on this board complaining about how underwhelming the ability to turn undead is for clerics.

(Ancients)
Natures Wrath seems pretty lackluster to me... A single target within 10 feet restraint... STR or DEX save... Probably gonna be escaped in most situations.

This is hugely powerful against an enemy spell caster -- yes you have to get in close (they've shut down ranged paladins fairly well) but this is an excellent attack against high-magic foes.

Turn the Faithless is about on par with Turn the Unholy, it really depends on your campaign.

(Vengeance)
Adjure Enemy is nice because it can be used on any creature type. However the trade off is its only for one target.
Vow of Enmity is pretty nice, but only works on one creature...

Abjure works on any creature type. Vow of Emnity is a bonus action against any creature type -- doesn't take an action, and gives yo an advantage to hit. It is easily the most powerful of these six abilities.

IMO this round goes
Sacred Weapon > Vow of Enmity > Natures Wrath
Turn/ Unholy = Faithless > Abjure Enemy

For me:

Abjure Enemy > Nature's wrath > Abjure > Sacred Weapon > Unholy > Faithless

Now, I'm to saying I'm right-you're wrong, but I am saying that these are things about which reasonable people might disagree as for what they'd want for their characters. That's good. By my count, though, Vengeance is the clear winner of the three oaths.

7th Level
(Devotion)
Aura of Devotion, immunity to charm. Can't go wrong with an always active immunity that you can radiate to others. Mileage may vary based on if your enemies can even charm you.

(Ancients)
Aura of Warding, resistance to damage from spells. IMO this is pretty badass. All spell damage cut in half AND you can radiate the ability to others as well.

(Vengeance)
Relentless Avenger lets you move up to half your speed following an AoO you hit someone with, this movement doesn't provoke any AoO's of its own. I don't really know how to feel about this... I personally find it a little lackluster for a lot of different reasons I won't explain unless someone asks me to.

IMO this round goes
Aura of Warding > Aura of Devotion (because it's always active) > Relentless Avenger (situational and meh...)

Agan, we can disagree:

Aura of Warding gives resistance to all spell damage. Devotion gives you an ability that is useful, but limited. Relentless Avenger is situationally specific and helps prevent BBEGs from running away. So for my money,

Warding > Devotion > Relentless

UNLESS I was playing a character that wanted to pursue individuals, for whatever reason, to make them pay for what they've done. In which case, I'd probably be a Vengeance Paladin...

So again, we disagree. The upper level abilities are going to come into play a lot less, since (let's face it) fewer campaigns are at that level. But even still:

15th Level
(Devotion)
Purity of Spirit's mileage may vary based off the amount of evil/good you are fighting, but I think a permanent aura to protect vs good/evil is pretty beefy.

(Ancients)
Undying Sentinel, I like the utility of this ability simply allowing you to stay in the fight longer. No aging drawbacks is a nice flavor touch.

(Vengeance)
Soul of Vengeance... ok this is probably where this Oath really chaps my ass... This skill sucks IMHO. The main reason is that it is solely reliant on you still having your Channel Divinity Vow of Enmity available. Every other Oath's abilities of this level are completely seperate from the channel and not reliant on it.

IMO this round goes
Purity of Spirit > Undying Sentinel >>>>>>>>>>>>> Soul of Vengeance

Again, given that we disagree on the most powerful level-3 ability, your position does not surprise me, but I do think you are missing its strengths.

Purity of Spirit is excellent; no doubt.
Undying Sentinel gives you an ability shared by first-level half-orcs.
Soul of Vengeance falls between these two: it means that IN ADDITION to giving you advantage,e you can use a reaction for an extra attack. It doesn't require an extra use of Channel Divinity, but it amps up what you can do, making the most powerful ability you have that is tied to your subclass even stronger. That seems pretty good to me.

20th Level
(Devotion)
Holy Nimbus, 10 dmg per turn is pretty minor at this level, but its every enemy within range for every turn, so I like this. Plus if they're fiend or undead you get advantage on saves against their spells. Mileage may vary on the second part.

Elder Champion, HP regen is nice. However I typically don't see many paladins go heavy on the spell casting side of the house, especially now that our spells fuel our smites. Aside from the HP regen I find this rather meh...

Avenging Angel, this is neutral for me. Sure you can fly for 60 ft and give off a fear aura, but once you hit your enemy the fear is broken. I suppose it could be used to great effect if you meta game and your whole group focus fires every frightened enemy one after another. I see this more as an "oh we're being zerged" button to crowd disperse and give the group breathing room.


IMO this round goes
All about even I suppose...

I'll be honest -- I put zero weight in level 20 abilities. Most players will never see them in use, and even if the campaign goes that far, many will have multi classed, agains making the irrelevant. But let's consider them anyways: Nimbus and Champion both last for one minute, and so 1 combat per long rest. Avenging Angel lasts for an hour. Don't consider the metagame abilities; consider the ability to walk through an army of minions on your way to your level-appropriate opponent. For me:

Angel > Elder Champion > Nimbus.

Alright, so that's my two cents on this matter. Personally I was hoping to like the Vengeance Oath a lot more than I do, simlply because it opens a lot of role play options that we're hard to do given the strict alignment codes of the past. However, I can't help but feel this Oath is lackluster.

What does everyone else think?

It's clear we disagree -- that we value different things about the paladins. That's fine, of course. But I think you're being unduly harsh on the Vengeance Abilities, which seem to me perfectly fine.

Hope this helps.

 

[Ashkelon]

One thing to realize about vengeance is that they get both elemental weapon and haste. Those are two of the best offense related combat buffs in the game.

Of course, Oathbreakers appear to be better damag dealers overall with their +Charisma to damage feature gained at level 7.

 

[Valador]

First off, thanks for the feedback!

Except that it requires an action, which means giving up the initial attack. And it doesn't affect to hit, which means that you still need to pump strength or dex if you want to hit. The net gain may be a point or two of damage, at the expense often of the initial action in combat.
Not quite a monster, but it does make your weapon count as magical if you don't have one already.

The +CHA bonus is for the attack rolls, not the damage rolls. Unless I've misread. That's why I liked it better because it can be applied to anyone I attack with that specific weapon.

This is hugely powerful against an enemy spell caster -- yes you have to get in close (they've shut down ranged paladins fairly well) but this is an excellent attack against high-magic foes.

While I agree that this would be great to root a caster in place, most situations I've seen is that there are a.) enemies in between to deal with first, b.) the battle area is confined enough that range isn't an issue, c.) our party has a ranged attacker, or d.) we're out in the open and the paladin will probably never get within 10 feet of a smart caster. That's just MY personal experience. Mileage may very I suppose.

Abjure works on any creature type. Vow of Emnity is a bonus action against any creature type -- doesn't take an action, and gives yo an advantage to hit. It is easily the most powerful of these six abilities.

Once again I can't justify Abjure being stronger than the Devotion oath simply because it ONLY works on one target. Vow of Enmity is nice, I'll agree, but personally I would take +CHA to hit EVERYONE vs. +advantage versus one target. Granted the average bonus from advantage may be higher than a normal CHA bonus, I think being able to use it on more enemies makes it superior.

Warding > Devotion > Relentless

We more or less agreed on this one.

Purity of Spirit is excellent; no doubt.
Undying Sentinel gives you an ability shared by first-level half-orcs.
Soul of Vengeance falls between these two: it means that IN ADDITION to giving you advantage,e you can use a reaction for an extra attack. It doesn't require an extra use of Channel Divinity, but it amps up what you can do, making the most powerful ability you have that is tied to your subclass even stronger. That seems pretty good to me.

Soul of Vengeance is nice, but it's the availability that deters me. The fact that it is solely dependant on still having your channel available really annoys me. It doesn't require an extra use, it just requires that you hadn't used your channel already because you need your channel available to cast Vow of Enmity in order for Soul of Vengeance to take effect. So the fact that it has to piggyback off of that really upsets me. If that wasn't the case, if Vow of Enmity/Soul of Vengeance didn't require the channel cost, then it would be great in my book.

I appreciate the feedback, and I can clearly see where you're coming from. I guess it's really just a difference in playstyle.

Hopefully we can get some more ideas/comments snowballing in here.

Edited : Using my smartphone to post, the structure and some quotes were messed up. Sorry!

 

[Valador]

One thing to realize about vengeance is that they get both elemental weapon and haste. Those are two of the best offense related combat buffs in the game.

Of course, Oathbreakers appear to be better damag dealers overall with their +Charisma to damage feature gained at level 7.

The spells are nice. I didn't bring up spells simply because that's a whole new can of worms lol and the fact that our smites are fueled off our spell slots. So I guess that whole topic would end up being smite vs. the benefit of spells.

 

[Kobold Stew]

The +CHA bonus is for the attack rolls, not the damage rolls. Unless I've misread. That's why I liked it better because it can be applied to anyone I attack with that specific weapon.

My bad; thanks. I think things don't sort out much differently in the long run...

I appreciate the feedback, and I can clearly see where you're coming from. I guess it's really just a difference in playstyle.

because this is my point. There are strengths of both. I really do't think Vengeance is that week. (spells are another factor that could be included here.)

 

[AmerginLiath]

As others have mentioned, you need to include spells – Vengeance has likely the edge in spells. Also, be mindful of the direction of focus: you mention that Relentless Avenger et al seem best served against a single opponent, when that's the exact point. The Oath of Vengeance is basically tailored for that sort of one-on-one. Even the oft-questioned Adjure Enemy is meant for lockdown of either a single foe or against other foes who would get in the way of a primary target (serious read over the actual oath description)...

 

[Ahrimon]

I'd say that advantage against 1 target is still better than +cha against all. But it does rely on having great weapon mastery. That -5 to hit doesn't hurt near as much when you get to roll twice. It's also a better chance for a crit to smite on.